Covenants: we make our stand here and now

I’m sort of torn on this whole thing. On one hand I want choice to matter and I don’t think you should just be able to always pick the best tool for the job. I see nothing wrong on paper with saying if you decide you want to focus on one aspect of the game it means you have to give up being as good at another aspect of the game. That’s what the choice represents: You can’t be equally good at everything, just like in the real world.

However, WoW has a history of the opposite and people will try to skirt around it as much as possible so it brings up the point of why bother if you know it’s going to be subverted and worked around in any way it can be? People clearly want to be able to do everything equally well and are going to find some way to do that no matter what Blizzard does so it seems like not just accepting that and designing around it is causing a bigger divide than trying to push everyone to accept the goal.

This whole debate has become so cringe. People are here on the forums suggesting that we keep covenants just for the sake of screwing over mythic raiders and streamers. That’s just so cringey.

Look, I’m fine with covenants being semi permanent. What I don’t like is that some of the abilities are so clearly better for certain types of content for my class. I’m not a hardcore player. I play a lot and I actually enjoy the casual features at this point in my life more. That said, I enjoy playing multiple types of content in the game. This is a gameplay style that blizzard encourages, which they’ve said multiple times in regards to their gearing philosophy. There’s already an element in the game that makes players who do this suboptimal compared to players who specialize: player skill. You practice less, you’re not going to be as good. Why is this not enough? This seems like an unnecessary and artificial punishment to a play style that they’re encouraging. In a single player game this might make sense, but in a multiplayer game, skill matters. There’s no need to place a system on top of it.

I’ll being picking nightfae because my wife is really excited about the storyline in nightfae and we want to progress together through the game and story. Because of that simple desire, I’ll be punished in various aspects of the game. This makes no sense to me. Hardcore players aren’t going to be as inconvenienced by this as I likely will because they have the skill to mitigate more of the consequences And they have the time to overcome the punishment (the more likely route).

It seems like there should be multiple places of comprises here to make everyone happy. First, blizzard layers these convoluted systems so much that I start to wonder why they’re all necessary. Our player power is already tied to the covenants in forms of soulbinds. On top of that they add conduits and cov abilities. What would be lost by just making the covenant class abilities exists as a talent tree or allowing us to rent those abilities from other covenants for anima at the start of every week? There’s so much of the end game content gated behind covenants besides for 4 class abilities.

Well, apparently, people on the forums don’t care about making more fun systems. They’re more concerned by some Grudge they hold towards mythic players or streamers and whatever else. Just so bizarre.

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Honestly, I am not for changing but I feel like this entire thing is just a Fake out. Blizzard is likely doing this to get a negative reaction from a set number of community members, just so when they change and make it freely open they can say. See we do listen. and get some of that faith back. It’s all a ploy, Mark my words.

Based on what I read. It looks like its going to be a great feature. It shouldn’t be dismantled because people like to minmax every point of their character down to the 10,000%. There is alot of people who just want to immerse themselves into the world. Who don’t care about upper level mythic dungeons, and raids. What ultimatley would make up my mind is how they are going to progress and evolve throughout each patch

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Covenant restrictions? Awesome.

Tying abilities and immense amounts of player power to Covenants? Not awesome.

This is my 2 copper:

Give players both the Covenant ability and class specific Covenant ability for completing the zone quest-line, since leveling in SL is now linear. Provides us with a sense of accomplishment after completing each zone. This means at level 60 players will have access to all the abilities, however we should only be able to have 1 Covenant and 1 Class specific Covenant ability on our bars at a time.

Then, at endgame we further commit to a Covenant by binding our soul with them, thus unlocking the Soulbind trees associated with that specific Covenant.

I legitimately don’t care in what form Covenants launch.

I see people on here, reddit, even youtube complaining and providing their criticism about the system, and having read and seen as much as I have at this point, I don’t see it being any better or worse no matter how it launches. The discussion at this point boils down to what the “1%” playerbase thinks of it, and what the “casual” playerbase thinks of it. And I think they’re both overall wrong.

The 1% wants it to be opened up so you can switch Covenants around without issue or blockade, while the casual playerbase seems to want it to remain restrictive as it currently is for RPG reasons. The fact of the matter is that the 1% has always been dealing with annoying stuff and they will continue to do so regardless of how difficult it ends up being if they have to, because they aren’t ones who are very quick or keen to quit the game outright. Sure, it’d be easier if the system was opened up, and it might overall be a good thing, but they’re still going to find annoying stuff that they have to deal with if they want to min-max, and they’ll end up complaining about it too. Meanwhile the casual playerbase is frankly pretty stupid if they think restriction equates to RPG elements. In Morrowind choosing or creating your class is pretty important, as it determines what you are good or bad at from the very start. However, you can still go against your class’s chosen skills and level them up to max if you want, because you aren’t restricted from doing so. Many have argued that Covenants are much like a sub-class system, but having them be as restrictive and difficult to constantly switch around as most think they will be actively goes against a common RPG mechanic, that being you can actively change, improve, and utilize skills which you didn’t pick from the start, and you can do so freely. Skyrim is the literal embodiment of being free to change and use whatever the hell you want without any real restrictions. Despite how many like to argue that Skyrim is a bad RPG partly because of this, it’s just an easier form of something one has always been able to do in TES games. The entire argument that restriction makes Covenants more of an RPG element or system is genuinely just flat out false.

Now, that being said, I have a way in which one might get the best of both worlds, in a sense at least. I call it: Covenant Allegiances.

Say you join the Venthyr Covenant and increase your renown level to the first weekly cap or so, and then return to Sinfall, where Prince Renethal has a quest waiting for you. He tasks you with providing aid to the other Covenants of the Shadowlands in an effort to form allegiances with all of them. You get the choice of which Covenant to ally with each time you get the quest, but we’ll go with the Necrolords for the sake of example. You travel to Maldraxxus and meet up with Baroness Vashj or Baron Mograine and offer your aid on behalf of the Venthyr. They task you with dealing with whatever threat there is in Maldraxxus, and by the end of it you have further proven your worth to the Necrolords, and more, you have proven the Venthyr’s worth as an ally, and thus they agree to the offer of allegiance. Once an allegiance is formed with a Covenant, you can freely access their soulbinds and switch to their set of abilities and use them for as long as you wish, doing so via an emissary. Switching your abilities back to Venthyr is as easy as returning to Sinfall and talking with Prince Renethal, or simply your Covenant’s own emissary.

You still remain a full member of the Venthyr Covenant, but as an ally to the Necrolords you offer the Venthyr’s strength to theirs, and vice versa. The downsides of merely being allies and not joining the Necrolords outright are simple. You don’t get to experience your allied Covenant’s storylines, or access their special cosmetic items, or any other special items tied to the Covenant specifically. Your initial choice dictates what theme you preferred, and what item-based rewards you obtain, and what story you experience, but allegiances remove the barrier between the powers each Covenant provides. You can ally with each and every Covenant as well, so you never have to switch one ally for another in order to access their powers. Perhaps there would be a means to which you need to maintain your allegiances, but I couldn’t personally think of anything other than separate, much more easy to handle set of renown with each ally.

All that being said, I refer to what I said at the very beginning of this. I legitimately don’t care how the system launches because I know I’ll enjoy it regardless. Even so I can recognize the flaws on both sides of the argument and have my own ideas for how to solve the issue in favor of both of them. I want to clarify quickly as well that when I refer to them as the 1% and the casual playerbase, I obviously don’t mean literally every single person who might identify as such. There are many in the casual playerbase who generally agree with the 1%, and I’m sure somewhere there is a vice versa to that.

History and future are two different things … Just because you could or couldn’t do something in the past does not mean it must always be that way … I think them going in a direction to make choices matter more is a good thing …

Could you imagine what the world would be like if we followed the since its part of history it MUST remain so mentality ? I mean how much stuff would different races and genders be not aloud or forced to do ?

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Yeah. I get the idea what they really want is for people to pick what activity (singular) they like to do and then they go into that bucket without overlap. E.g. if you like to PVP you go through the “PVP Door” and only focus on PVP, etc without overlapping the other lanes.

That’s not the sort of thing you try to spring on people during an expansion though, that’s the sort of thing an entire game has to be based around for it to be accepted.

This is general discussion though…by far the most casual and uninformed space in the WoW community. If you go to reddit, youtube, twitch, discord, you will find the vast majority opposes locking player power to covenants.

As someone that plays multiple specs, I hate the fact that I will not be able to change my ability based on the spec I play. I should have that freedom just like we had the freedom to change essences or azerite.

No you should not. Talents should not be a freedom choice either but unfortunately I do not see that changing anytime soon. Choices should matter but those choices should not be temporary powers brought on by an xpac.

They have never been able to do this, even with far fewer complex systems interacting with one another. There is absolutely no reason to expect it to start happening now.

Sounds like most people don’t care and those against perma covenants are the minority (big shocker)…

There’s a reason all the profession bonuses were removed, lots of people like the choice of not doing any professions in order to raid. If you make these matter again you are taking away choices.

I’m against, “identity” is being forced. I’m a troll rogue for the Horde, when I travel to SL to…(save Azeroth??) I will be that still. Adding a covenant that dictates SL for me is essentially like choosing which dictator I’d like to follow, it makes no sense when these covenants supposedly work together?

Idk, I just don’t buy that this actually adds “identity” or whatever they are calling borrowed power this xpac.

yeah professions give pretty minor buffs, some give gear but…you can pick two and have alts that can reap the benefits of the others with little issue.

So I take it your in the camp of I don’t try so why should others.

Are you one of those people that buys carries so they don’t have to make an effort?

So, I’m totally fine with that. I’m just saying for people that are hammering down on this “meaningful choice” meme, they’re the perfect avenue instead of these temporary borrowed power gimmicks. The argument for not wanting professions is the exact same as not wanting permanently locked/not-swappable covenants, but meaningful professions are right up the ally of “meaningful choice.” Which is why I’m saying it isn’t actually about the “meaningful choice” for people when it comes to covenants.

It is going to affect people that do various form of content more then the 1 % .

It is going to affect more casual players then anything and we are going to suffer just because the rpers who despise the mythic raiders and the mythic + as well as arena crowd and want to see them suffer and don’t care if it affects others as long as the 1% gets screwed.

Ok if the other 50 % of the casuals get screwed just as long as the rpers get to see the top end 1% get screwed.

It sounds like it matters to you