Covenants confirmed to be part of our identity thankfully

Community General Discussion
482

Talents; if everyone min/maxed in the same way, output talent options would not be different in the slightest, at all. There would be 0 need to have 3 talent options to pick from for damage/healing output. There’s a lot more fun talents that aren’t absolutely optimal but change the way a spec plays and makes it more fun to players.

It is not needed. If you are not doing world first, very few bosses absolutely need you to min/max to the degree some people min/max. This is a game, not a full time job, stop treating it as such unless you’re being paid for it or that’s your cup of tea. More than half of the bosses in raids require mechanics over super high dps, this has been the case since WoD. maybe even MoP when thunderforging and tokens were introduced.

Raids get nerfed. Back in the older xpacs like WotLK, BC, Cata you did not have gear coming in from other sources except raiding and PvP. I think there might have been some crafted gear, too, but I think it also required raiding or so much farming. Point being, there wasn’t so much excessive gear coming in. If your guild could not down a boss, then it was stuck. A lot more DPS check bosses were around plus they required a lot better performance for mechanics while keeping DPS to a high degree. They realized this hampered a lot of guilds, so they made things easier over time.

By easier I do not mean more mechanically easier, they loosened the requirement to down bosses. Instead of super high dps+mechanics performance on the part of every single person, it is now more mechanics heavy than damage output. Also, you did not have so much gearing options then, which actually works to soft nerf raids each week.

Think about your weekly mythic+ for doing a +15. That’s a guaranteed piece of mythic loot each week. Whether it’s an upgrade, side grade, or nothing at all is entirely different, but it is a guaranteed piece of loot right there without ever having stepped foot into the raid yet. Across 20 raiders? This is 20 pieces of gear, that’s a lot of potential soft nerfing. Bonus rolls added in many more gear drops. Titanforging/Corruption added bonus output for free. In Legion they tuned raids to be set for everyone in the raid having a minimum of X level of weapon traits. If you had more then that was extra bonuses. They tuned BFA raids to a minimum neck level, more is again bonus output. Bonuses on top of bonuses on top of more bonuses to reduce the difficulty of the raids.

Yes, guilds still do not complete Mythic, more of that is usually player skill levels than anything else, as a lot of people still fail at mechanics. That is both player skill and mechanics, not because they do not meet the damage output required, but usually a failed mechanic turns into a raid wipe.

With all this, do you feel you have to min/max? Absolutely not. If you want to, sure go for it, but your characters, in most cases should be more than capable of downing the boss before an enrage timer, assuming people do mechanics correctly and not mess those up. DPS checks are a different story, but again, a lot fewer of those when compared to the raid as a whole.

483

Because copying the meta build does not make you a good player, getting gud does

484

Sorry pal, didnt mean to make you yell there. I didnt mean min/max in the hardcore sense. Meant more on the lines of chasing upgrades and swapping gear in and out to increase our performance.

485

Like i said nobody has an issue with players who might obsessively min max, the issue comes when bad players copy a build and min max(or tell themselves they do because they have a different set) and TELL OTHERS WHAT TO DO, or refuse to invite x class in X content.

The problem arent the min maxers, they will just level 4 of each like they always do to min max, the problem are the average people who worship min maxers without understand how the game works and trying to tell others what to do or blame others for their failures.

If a guild is wiping at some boss the last issue is someone not min maxing, the issues that are almost always first are failing mechanics or people performing badly even in their meta build.

The problem isnt the people wanting to do X, it is the people telling everyone else that they should do X or they arent invited.

486

ah, yeah, i agree with that for sure. im in a relaxed guild. we progress heroic. RL doesnt seem to care much about dps or hps. All he cares about is our ability to do the mechanics. I mean, don’t get me wrong, pretty sure we’d have an aweful time if all the dps were pulling 25k. Point everyone is trying to make though is, you’re right, my covenant ability wont get me from 25k to 50k so I get it.
I’m not sure how many people are putting in the effort this season to push to 15 keys at least, and progress heroic. I would suggest to blizzard, if the majority of players in this game are pushing keys to that level, then it would be in their best interest to allow us to change covenant abilities on the fly. It’s more enjoyable that way. It will be irritating if we can’t. On the other hand, if the majority of players are doing rpg things in this game instead, then fine. Make switching difficult. I get it, it’s an rpg so we need those elements in the game. I’d argue they should focus their energy more on making better the rpg aspect of this game without affecting any player power. Once the focus is shifted more towards the rpg element of the game, then they can start affecting abilities like this. My thoughts on this. I don’t play this like an rpg. I got my toon to 120, did all the stuff I had to do to gear up, get essences, and cloak. Now I just do mythics and raids 98% of the time. Get this game to shift it to 98% of rpg gameplay and I’ll have no gripes about getting locked into a covenant.

487

Indeed but that would be due to bad performance and definitely not because of build or stat weights unless that player had absolutely zero idea what they were doing but again that would imply a skill issue rather than build issue.

For example the amount of times guilds easily clear bosses while half the DPS are grey parsing then clearly raids dont have such huge DPS requirements, if people are wiping again, the issue are not the people playing sub optimally, it is players who dont perform well or fail mechanics.

Yet this would do nothing but keep spreading the simming mindset to average players as well as player discrimination based on spec/covenant/class, and since Ion quite clearly said: “People need to get out of the simming mindset” I would hazard a guess forcing them to not be ultra optimal is an attempt to make them get used to being sub optimal and realize you can do m+ without the AoE covenant ability which might also make them stop discriminating against classes or specs a streamer told them are bad when they are doing an ultra casual m5.

Will this work? No idea and doubt anyone can tell the future but imo it is worth a try since removing that culture is the end goal in order to improve the game community.

I prefer long single target fights yet because the Necrolord mog and theme is that much better I ll be choosing them which means I ll be stuck with the AoE abillity, that wont bar me from raiding and doing ST focused fights, I ll adapt, make use of the ability in such scenarios and still perform well in all the content I am doing.

488

Yeah, i noted it wouldnt be because of a covenant ability for the dps gap. I’m saying if Ion wants the playerbase to get away from simming the he needs to shift the game away from mythic, raids, and pvp, and more towards questing and world content. Why he wants to start shifting our focus to the rpg element by locking player power to perform better in mythic vs raid is beyond me. It doesn’t make sense. It’s just a cop out of an idea because they can’t come up with better content. It’s a bad move in my opinion. That’s all I’m saying.

489

You can not have both the idea of covenants and e-sports like mythic’s.

One makes you prioritize theme and RP = AKA better for a game where meter’s are banned.

The other hyper focus’s on meters and metric’s and min maxing = RP and theme are secondary.

And in a game with ample peer pressure from the spreadsheet guru’s systems like covenants seem just built to drive you outta your mind. It is not a meaningful choice, it is annoyance for the sake of annoyance.

2 Likes
490

I would say that isnt the case, you can still do all those without having the most mathematically optimal build, yet many people tell themselves THEY NEED to and also tell others what to do.

Clearly the issue is the mindset, people can do all that just fine, the mindset is simply causing issues for many people and needs to be removed because it affects many players negatively.

I dont know if it will succeed since changing cultures and mindsets is a pretty hard thing to achieve but i will always support such attempts.

You can, there is simply a big gap between esport/world first players and everyone else, at this moment that gap is filled with average players deluding themselves they are great because they copied method’s build even when they perform badly but more importantly affect the community negatively by telling others what to do and how to play.

491

You can’t, simply due to the fact that these know it all’s will never go away. They don’t just disappear because they don’t work with the logical formula of how the “system should work”. The system needs to adapt for their existance and the trouble they bring.

Right now this current system does not adapt, it just factor’s in the normal people. And if everyone was normal it would work friggen great.

1 Like
492

True they wont disappear over night, especially many WoW addicts that might hate the game yet still play.

That is seemingly the goal of covenants though, to make such people either unsub, or get used to the new system and play sub optimally, or get used to having 4 of the same class to be optimal for all situations which is what actual min maxers for world first will do.

That is the goal, will it work, we ll see, I cant know

That is also a valid idea, though I would like to point out the difference between a system that exists acknowledging such people’s existence and a system that panders to them and as it stands people are asking for a system that panders to them which only make the community issue worse and is therefore not a solution.

493

I would personally make the system the original way at first. But over time have players able to steal other covenants abilities.

This way the wrong decision can be rectified by going forward rather then re-doing everything. Making it a slower path with the same results.

494

Dude, you’re not going to change people’s minds. Just change the game. Dont give me abilities give me content. Problem solved. I’m not a game developer so I have no clue. Spend the time developing content instead of figuring out new abilities and balancing them. Let us go through the expansion called 9.0 then tell us “champion we have much more to do but we must get stronger. Hone your skills in the arena and find lucrative gear in the dangerous dungeons”. Give us 3 months and release 9.1 to continue the story. Continue this until the next expansion.

495

The way to do it is this way. What this will be able to do is:

  • Show people that no, you do not need to be optimal in every way to do high end content of every kind.

  • Yes, people will make like 4-8 characters of the same class, that is fine and acceptable, since that is their choice. While this goes against the previous point, it is also a fine secondary as eventually you will get tired. You will either a) stop trying, b) leave the game, or c) keep going until you’ve completely exhausted yourself.

  • Yes, this system will annoy players, but, given the fact that min/maxers who keep trying to force/get others to min/max gets more annoying and is what creates this rift where people don’t even wanna try mythic raiding at all, this change will be a necessary one to make people understand. Yes, people’s minds can change, it just needs time. It will not happen right away, but, if they keep at it, you 100% can change a person’s mind. Just not over night.

I like this idea, but also I hate it. Personally, I want them to keep giving us new things. More than that I want them to keep iterating on class design until people are generally very happy with how their specs play. If you’re happy and I mean actually happy playing a shadow priest, then sweet! I think we hit it, but there’s seriously a ton of specs where they might do decent numbers, but their mechanics and design flow just suck. Those specs need to keep being redesigned until the fantasy of them aligns with the flow and creates for a very fun time to be had on that.

Number tuning is one thing, but what turns a lot of people away is when their spec just doesn’t sit well and is all clunky or terribly designed.

This is false, as this existed in MoP with challenge modes. It was proven already as challenge modes gave the same thing mythic+s do now, a challenging dungeon experience.

Yes, it is difficult, but as previously stated, doing it this way will begin shifting the paradigm from just numbers into more towards both numbers and RP/class themes. However, it may take 1-3 expansions to accomplish this so it is a very long goal instead of a short goal and it will require a large amount of patience/stubbornness on their end.

We play the game of peer pressure because RP/Theme had taken a back seat to WoW for like 4 expansions now. So the paradigm shifted from what it was back in MoP to what it is now where it’s entirely a numbers game instead of both. By driving people out of their minds you either make them leave the game, which sucks for subs and money coming in but works towards shifting the paradigm better, or you shift their focus away after the first expansion of this being the main theme. People just need to see it with their own eyes first; the world will not burn because you are not 100% optimal 100% of the time in 100% of every situation. When they see this; their minds will begin a very slow transition.

1 Like
496

you notice how many classes have locked in builds?

Playing a game at your best should be possible and not cause you to feel weak in other locations because of this.

not being paid at all but i do just so happen to pay every month to play the game and i prefer to not play part of the game poorly in order to play some of the game optimally.

Think of it this way if you have any single form of dps meter installed for wow then you care about dps. Now you may care less and that is your choice, but i intend to try and play the game to the best of my abilities if i am going to play it.

497

Wow seems people against changing covenants are super toxic.

498

They have locked in builds because they can change talents on the fly. Everyone has a “raiding” “mythic+” and “pvp” talent build, as well as a “leveling” talent build, too. Sometimes they’re all 100% the same, sometimes they are not.

Yes, playing your best inside of limitations should be possible. Playing at 100% capacity at 100% of the content should not be, no. I’m sorry that you disagree with this, but, you could play inside of the limitations of what you are given and still perform quite well. Good/great players will always be able to adapt to changes. You’ll only feel weak because, again as everyone always does, you are comparing one class to another. This, in turn, will never make anyone actually happy because there is always one class that is better than the others at something. Not a single person is the best at everything and that should never be the case, at all, for games or real life.

I pay for the game every month as well, and just as you say, I prefer not to have people thinking this min/max mindset is 1000% required in every piece of content. It’s a trickle down effect that comes from the top end players and hurls itself down the community.

That is fine, what I am not discouraging is playing to your best. What I am discouraging is people thinking it is a requirement to do so, as well as your “playing my best” option should not come at the cost of the game being a MMORPG.

499

Why do you think that? Why is the min/maxer mindset better or perceived to be better than the other?

500

so one character for each spec and covenant doesn’t sound acceptable means for playing. Why can’t we just get a 51 point talent sheet? it was better then and fun to make new specs.Unless they make covenants of get bonus gold when killing mobs or more rep when killing mobs,they are setting themselves up to fail again.

501

Why can’t people just look at this as a way of having fun being something they wanna be instead of a numbers game? Considering how easy and fast it will be to level up alts in Shadow Lands, you could make 4 of the same class, level them all up to 50 within the same week, and then pick different covenants so you can do all the content you wanna do, if you wanna be 100% efficient in every single aspect.

The 51 talent point system was kinda cool, but, eh, just locking things or making it mega long/difficult to swap would be fine. People are thinking ahead and they’re mega panicky because they all care only bout those charts, yo, and looking good on them. Nothing more.