Nah, I think I’ll keep making suggestions about what I think would help this class, because it’s obvious it needs changes. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with my ideas. Neither of us has decision making power though, so it’s pretty useless attempting to sway one another’s opinions, I guess!
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It doesnt need to work like Monk though. Swing speed doesnt matter with DK in the first place.
Frost is unique in its design because it turns 2 1h weapons into a 2h weapon while having the benefits of 2 weapons. A bunch of things in frost work better with having a second weapon. Even Deathbringer might actually work better with 2 weapons in gaining stacks (though no one is even looking at that in alpha because people are using it as marketing and views).
For instance, because Obliterate and Frost Strike hits with 2 weapons that could be 2 instances of frost damage so you get 2 stacks towards Reaper’s Mark instead of just 1.
100%.
Certain folks are determined in their mind that 2H is the sole reason for any kind of negative perception, but really it boils down the horrendously lazy implementation, lack of craft in spec design and poor balance.
I very much steered away from frost because of how simple it is (and because I like unholy fantasy better). How boring it plays after a while. Even when it had its strong moments as 2H frost in SL, it was still boring.
We should all be smashing threads like this:
Into the devs faces whenever we get the chance because those ideas are 10x better than anything I’ve seen put into frost in years.
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This lazy implementation is what you guys asked for. First it was “we just want to use it even if its bad” (called that out as the lie is was back when requested), then “2h needs MotFW back because its not worth it” “we need more KM procs” “we need 2 runeforges” (which is still going on today) “we need even more KM procs” and now “it was implemented poorly! It’s not the weapons fault!”
It is the weapons fault and other classes use FDK as a reason to not add things like 2h Enhance, they want SMF a transmog option, and now people want to homogenize DW and 2h which just removes DW.
Because you’re too bad at the game to get Shadowmourne.
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Shadowmourne doesn’t make you hit harder. People are using dual Havoc’s call which is the same ilvl as Shadowmourne.
Also I don’t think you understand what your argument is.
Looooooool
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You’ve never done any content of note where these distinctions would matter so it figures you don’t understand just how much of an advantage shadowmourne is.
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Your argument is “you need a legendary to play 2h”. Kind of a bad argument. Not only that, but people still arent using Shadowmourne with Frost. They are using Havoc’s Call which is 284 ilvl the same as Shadowmourne. You can say its a massive boon all you want, but its not or else people would be using it.
Maybe in Wrath PvP but in PvE the best Frost DKs aren’t using Shadowmourne and that’s a very easily verifiable statement.
Cool. This wasn’t even a thread about Wrath. You continually bring up something from 16+ years ago to argue about current frost? Tell me what weapon every DK has been using for the past two phases again?
Hint: It’s Fyr’alath and before that it was Ashkandur
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And I wasnt the one that brought up Frosts past play.
Again, I wasnt the one that brought up the past. People wanted to push “2h hit harder than DW” nonsense again and its just not true. I dont care if you want to twist the truth because of your limited attention span.
Every DK? There isnt one that EVERY DK has been using. Again pushing what you want reality to be instead of what reality is. People have been using Gholack, Volcoross, Fyr’alath (which isnt pushing 2h to be miles ahead of BoS) Proctor’s Tactical Cleaver, Scholar’s Thinking Cudgel… there were many, not just your 2 little 2 handers because thats all you want to be true.
In a vacuum, yes- any class can be designed to be weapon agnostic. Monks were designed that way from the beginning.
However, frost is not designed that way. In order to make frost weapon agnostic they would have to completely redesign the spec. They would have to change the class tree, runeforges, how all the procs and resources work, and even how attack damage is calculated.
We aren’t talking about a damage knob or two, this would be a ground up rework of the entire spec. It would be much more prudent to just limit the spec to one weapon type and go from there.
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Damage has been pretty equalized since Wrath just from a baseline between DW and 2h.
They would however have to rework how DW does its damage with Obliterate and Frost Strike, Runeforges which FC is always going to have to be a Runeforge unless the entire system is reworked and we just apply enchants, certain talents like Icecap and Cold Blooded Rage, they would have to remove MotFW entirely, rework KM procs or remove them completely.
It is just easier to focus on 1 weapon set which the precedent would be to keep DW, make 2h a transmog and just work on the spec.
Who are “you guys”? I don’t remember asking for this playstyle lol
Again not something I was harping on about. Its why I linked the other thread with actual great ideas.
It was implemented poorly, and it isn’t the fault of having 2H as an option. I literally just spoke on why in my previous post lol
Which again, is why I linked the other thread. The spec deserves way better
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Not to speak for your quoted poster but these forums specifically asked for 2h to return and for Obliterate to hit harder with 2h and have a larger focus.
So while you might feel it’s a “lazy” implementation, it’s more-or-less what these forums endlessly asked for: a version of Frost that has all its eggs in Obliterate.
It’s definitely become a great example of “you think you do but you don’t” because many of the people that wanted this version of Frost quit after getting it.
The pro 2h crowd that you are lumping yourself with.
You are lumping yourself in with the people who were. So you get the luxury of being included with them.
No, it really wasnt. 2h just doesnt fit with Frost. I dont know why its so hard to understand but people keep pointing out talents and a lot of other stuff that shows Frost is a DW spec. You wouldnt say Ret should use a bow right? Well Frost shouldnt have a 2h.
Well its the fault of the pro 2h people of why its in this spot. 2h can do nothing else but builds that are centered on Obliterate. Everything else has been neglected all for 2h. Sorry, but thats the reality. Where are the talents for Frostscythe? Where are the talents for Frost Strike? Where are the talents for GA? They either dont exist or barely exist all to push what people like Chillpills wanted, Trumpknight, Dreadmoore, Locutus and a whole slew of other people that you buddy up with.
Last expansion I suggested Rune Strike to take over for the primary rune spender, KM could be procced off of FF though it wouldnt scale at all with anything but it would be “normalized”, mastery needs to be changed because its a boring pile of garbage.
This is entirely at the fault of those that pushed for this, and you are buddying up with them. Dont want to be lumped in with them, then dont go arguing with me about how its not 2h fault. It absolutely is and other classes refuse to touch Frost because 2h returned.
2h has made the spec stale because it can only do 1 thing. Even if they changed MotFW the entire… ENTIRE spec would have to be redesigned for 2h. The best option initially would have been expand the transmog system so that you could transmog a 2h over your “toothpicks” which is the epitomy of cringe to call 1h weapons that are bigger than your model “toothpicks” because people are stuck in middle school, and focus on the spec so this dumb 2h vs DW crap would have never happened. But NOOOO… thats not an option.
“Doesn’t really fit” is utterly arbitrary. Whatever they implement is what fits. Whether they do a good job of making it fun and rewarding is a different matter.
2H melee DPS didn’t fit survival hunter until they made it fit. Demo locks metamorphosed with a fight the bar mechanic until they didn’t. Shadow managed shadow orbs until they didn’t. Everything is changeable.
“I think the best implementation of frost has been as a DW character.” “I think the spec hasn’t worked very well trying to support 2H and DW, so I would prefer they stick with one or the other.” “I really like the idea of an Arthas-style frost DK, with a 2H like how he was portrayed in Halls of Reflection.” All of that is valid.
But what do we want? We want the spec to be good, to be better than it’s been. We’re all worried that it will get passed by without serious improvement. Threads like this then are more like damage control than anything else. “Hey, if you aren’t going to rework frost, can we at least get what we have working as best as possible? It seems like trying to make 2H frost work well has been a distraction, and it would be better forgoing that in favor of making multiple builds better.” That’s valid. “Nah, 2H obliteration is fine” is also valid.
Tearing each other down to try invalidating suggestions or opinions is pretty worthless though, because we’re all playing these specs, regardless of level of difficulty.
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Not really.
And how did they make it fit? Did they shoehorn it into the spec while it primarily used a bow? Or did they completely remove the bow? I guarantee if they tried to shoehorn 2h into a ranged spec it wouldnt have worked.
Because they gave it to Demon Hunters, and they also nerfed the fool out of Demo because it needed a whole set of encyclopedias and addons to play it to its peak which they didnt want people to do (though look at WoW now) and they completely changed the spec to that of a summoner.
Yes, changeable, and that is a gamble. They tried shoehorning 2h into Frost and its representation went into the literal gutter. You can almost pinpoint when people started talking about “representation” and it was first tier of SL.
This has been the best implementation. There is no argument against it. At what point did 2h overtake DW outside of maybe 3.1? Then 3.2 hit and it went straight back to DW all the way untilllll… now? Where 2h isnt even better than DW and its gameplay is that of a dial tone.
It literally hasnt in the gameplay department.
And what did he do in Halls of Reflection? He sent undead at you while RP walking at you which wasnt tense at all. The starting trash was more tense that Sluggy McGee sending ghouls at you.
And that has always been achieved when there wasnt this lets make each weapon do something different nonsense. When they dropped 2h (because its a DW spec) representation instantly went up by an astronomical margin. It wasnt like a few here and there, it was like 8x more parses than that of WoD. They were able to focus on the spec and make it good for the majority of the players.
They are going to run into issues when they change the duration of BoS back to as close to 30sec. There is no way around it. There are a few options that will happen. BoS is going to be absolutely bursty because they just take all the damage that BoS would do in 2 minutes into those 30 seconds which means the rest of the spec is how it is, or they bring down the power of BoS, and then look into ways of increasing Frost Strike, Howling Blast, RW, Frostscythe, and GA. You can see something is missing from that list, and that would be Obliterate. Since all the eggs got thrown into the Obliterate basket, thats where they would have to take the damage from to buff up everything else. This pushes the spec back towards DW because again 2h can only do 1 thing due to the passive it has… Obliterate.
Or, they can do massive changes which I highly doubt they will do. Going to have to see what their idea of cutting down resources will be. But I suspect they will have a mess on their hands.
Yup. Breath has to be balanced against Obliteration, and Obliteration is difficult to nerf because it isn’t just a damage boost- it changes how PoF works mechanically. About the only thing they could do would be to change icecap to reduce PoF uptime.