Content to remedy the intolerable Night Elf and Forsaken situations

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Ariël-drakkari

Again, if we talking about lore then the basis of the knowledge is quite similar between all the druid organizations. It´s not “new knowledge” not “new technnology”… is just same variant of Nature with focus in x or y.

If you really think that night elves have shared all their knowledge about druidism, you are wrong We even expierience such fact, in the suramar-questline.

The night elves sit on their “Throne of Knowledge” about the possibilitys of Druidism and don´t share everything, for example, worldtrees and how to grow one.

@Ariël-drakkari

And that´s the point regarding the Nelves… they got kicked in the WoT same as Europeans did historically: a combination of WTF unexpected military tactics and pyschological terror, period. And the writers were magnanimous enough to give them plot armor in trhe form of absent army.

It is not at all about who has defeated how when where! They still found effective strategies against the Horde, and cost the Horde more troops than the other way around, they effectively made the Horde’s life hell with an absolute outnumbered strategy.

The point is that they do not always take strategy X but use a variety of strategies to win.

@Ariël-drakkari

Actually no, it isn´t. If Bliz gave actual realism to the technnologies portrayed in-game, the world would be owned by the Gobs, the Gnomes and the Draenei -whose tech is old but actually STILL in the zenith travel in the space era-, who have actual weapons of massive destruction in their arsenals.

Well, magic beats technology in Warcraft, just look at what the voidstones did to the goblins’ technology.

Magic > Technology

@Ariël-drakkari

So when you say people using the same tools of 15.000 years ago are “peak adapt examples” while we have races with intercontinental missiles, massive chemical AND biological weapons and space ships it´s incoherent AF. The only reason Nelves survive is because the actual narrative ignore all of the above in favor of portraying the fights as if suddenly everybody forgot they had those tools available and we´re all back to medieval age.

You may be forgetting here that even one of the greatest powers of the night elves may only be used to a very limited extent…they can terraform.

Only they have this knowledge, no one else. Only they have used it, no one else. If you list all this here, you also forget that the night elves are not allowed to use everything that has been attributed to them by Lore and has already been shown.

And sorry, but its exist no more deadly weapon as…Terraforming, because you will kill everyone, everyone, in this place to form this place in your own imagination. To create new stuff, you have to change existing ones. Val’Sharrah was only completely destroyed and ruined 10,000 years ago, so they didn’t have to kill anything there to create new.

Val’Sharrah is such an example, or the barrens, the night elves used their ability for good, but no one could stop them, if they use it to kill someone.

PS: And now I’ve done it, I’ve gone into a silly power discussion!

That was my last answer to this now, because I’m actually about the adaption and not about “who has the biggest imaginary pe***”

i could kick myself right now.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

If you really think that night elves have shared all their knowledge about druidism, you are wrong We even expierience such fact, in the suramar-questline.

In which the only druid NOT affiliated with the Nelf druid organizations had a vague idea in how to solve the Nightborne problem and only thanks to the massive screw up that created the Spider elves before?

How is this relevant to Nelf druidism “vast knowledge”, again?

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

worldtrees and how to grow one.

Cause Darnassus + all the other World Trees destroyed so far were SO important for Azeroth, amrite?

I mean, it´s not like the planet continued unimpeded after their destruction

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

It is not at all about who has defeated how when where! They still found effective strategies against the Horde, and cost the Horde more troops than the other way around, they effectively made the Horde’s life hell with an absolute outnumbered strategy.

The point is that they do not always take strategy X but use a variety of strategies to win.

So… just like the Horde races did the first time while they invaded -and invading is harder military wise btw-? And all races do in-game?

How does acting like everybody and their mother suddenly gives the military high ground for the Nelves when not even the Lightforged Draenei -the actual LONG lived AND long battling race- have it?

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

Well, magic beats technology in Warcraft, just look at what the voidstones did to the goblins’ technology.

Magic > Technology

Until it doesn´t I guess, considering the very Battle for the Undercity -and yes I know Jaina, but then, let´s be honest and see Jaina for the Deux Ex Machina she was… cause NOTHING in her personal research background would imply she had any idea in how to control Blight, period.-

Or Theramore and Mana Bomb (which was portrayed as atomical bomb esque scenario).

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

You may be forgetting here that even one of the greatest powers of the night elves may only be used to a very limited extent…they can terraform.

Like Belves -hello perma autum Eversong Forest- and Shamans -hello, world destroyed by Nerzhul thanks to Elemental manipulation- do?

Also, take in mind Nelves “terraform” in the most superficial of ways, they don´t have the magical tools to ACTUALLY terraform in the strict sense of the word (that would be Shamans wortking with the very Earth and Fire and Wind and Water making up the elements themselves, though).

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

Val’Sharrah is such an example, or the barrens, the night elves used their ability for good, but no one could stop them, if they use it to kill someone.

Draenor with a massively bigger terraforming process (Gorgrond´s Genesaur + Botani) being controlled by Orcs and their Shamans would love to have a word with you.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Ariël-drakkari

Actually the problem is devs forgetting the actual weapons of mass destruction present in BOTH Horde and Alliance races in favor of portraying “war battles” in medieval esque times. Cause when you think the only thing Horde needed to do to destroy Darnassus was to launch the cannon is laugh worthy

Which was already pointed out to Droité earlier on in the thread:

@Anyaceltica-llane

I don’t know why people are trying to apply real life battle-tactics to a setting that doesn’t follow logic and regularly ignores its own canon.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Amadis-draka

Which was already pointed out to Droité earlier on in the thread:

Indeed, ergo why trying to justify one race winning by “adaptability” or any other reason is actually ridiculous.

Most races have is massive plot armor designed to hide the actual incoherent narrative being deployed, period. Reason too why protecting the characters has become waaay more relevant than protecting places -cause unfortunately for us, the current lore Is being told by proxy of the races´s heroes feats and nothing else-.

Most of the lore is nothing but a dumpster fire.

Btw Amadis… Droitè herself aknowledged this too.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

they have already fought so many ENEMIES that there is little left of mortal peoples, which surprises them.

This is why they fell for an obvious feint and sent practically their entire military and navy to the other side of the continent?

So, their ‘experience’ as you put it has led them to be arrogant.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

And yet Droité insists on adaptability that you yourself point out is ridiculous.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

I think it really rubs her wrong to see the few perks on her favorite race being ignored and made irrelevant in the face of “muh magical elves” trope, regardless on how stupid and detrimental this trope ends up looking (and mind you, I´m a Belf fan).

I can respect that stance.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

This is why they fell for an obvious feint and sent practically their entire military and navy to the other side of the continent?

So, their ‘experience’ as you put it has led them to be arrogant.

Man, the War of Thorns was such an useless detrimental event. Had devs actually used the stupid cannon stationed in Aszhara (which would had been a nice nod to the final Legion Horde cinematic in which it was implied both Gally and Sylvie were up for trouble) to destroy Darnassus -if it was imperative to destroy it ) with a massive azerite charge it would have made the narrative slightly less stupid for the Horde side -at least it wouyldn´t have involved the destruction of the WC3 Horde themes and made them Hordies a parody of themselves.

Heck, it would have made azerite actually relevant for the plot, cause azerite was but a non issue plot wise for the whole of BfA…

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

This is why they fell for an obvious feint and sent practically their entire military and navy to the other side of the continent?

They are not perfect, and thats even my argument, yes, they are good, very good, but they aren´t perfect.

and btw. The feint was lorewise sooo damm good, no one know what would happened.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

So, their ‘experience’ as you put it has led them to be arrogant.

more too self-confident, that the peace will not breake. I mean, they were not at war in this time.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

This is why they fell for an obvious feint and sent practically their entire military and navy to the other side of the continent?

For the exact reason the Horde didn’t immedietly disown Sylvanas following the burning. For the same reason no neutral faction spoke up during bfa, or why the wild gods or the emerald dragonflight sat on their behinds. For the same reason we didn’t see the vindicar, or the majority of the army of the light.

Because the plot demanded it.

[Finninbas-moon-guard]

To be fair. How much of that is on the Night elves part compared to say, the plot demands they do it.

We are literally talking about blizzard here. The amount of times “plot demands x wins” is ridiculous, same with the amount of times the “Plot demands that x acts stupid.”

Ugh lol hate repeating what others said but basically almost what morghel posted.

[Ikaar-dreadmaul]

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Both Undercity and Brill, which was a popular RP site are just as gone as Teldrassil.

Those are just cities, the whole zone of Teldrassil is gone.

[Gladwell-wyrmrest-accord (Gladwell)]

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Last time I checked warfare in the Middle Ages was painfully short of flying ships, mecha tanks, and magic. Any one of which throw the typical medieval model off the battlements.

Well, yeah, but, swords and armor and guns and stuff!

They waffle on it, but, every now and then, you see something that makes sense in the context of a historical evaluation. I mean- what else do we do, if we don’t run with that tiny scrap?

“Hey did you see that scene with Archimonde?”

“Yeah, he got totally owned!”

And, then, y’know. End of discussion. It’d be painfully short.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

Those are just cities, the whole zone of Teldrassil is gone.

Translation: “Is not as important to Horde fans as Teldrassil was to Alliance fans and therefore doesn’t count.”

Did I get that right?

[Dardillien-wyrmrest-accord (Dardillien)]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Translation: “Is not as important to Horde fans as Teldrassil was to Alliance fans and therefore doesn’t count.”

No, there is a difference. Alliance just destroyed Tirisfal down the middle, not the ENTIRE zone. Teldrassil was an ENTIRE zone and it was completely destroyed. I don’t understand how people can’t see the difference…

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Dardillien-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t understand how people can’t see the difference…

Which one do you think holds more weight for Horde players?

[Finninbas-moon-guard]

Roughly the same amount of area got made unlivable.

Still Sylvanas is the one behind the damage of both

[Dardillien-wyrmrest-accord (Dardillien)]

I mean maybe? Shadowglen, Dolanaar (sp?), Darnassus and all the little settlements and entire zone of Teldrassil is gone, burned to ash.

Tirisfal lost Brill to the Alliance as they scorched their way to Undercity. In lore people can still GO to Tirisfal, the same can’t be said for Teldrassil.

And Sylvanas is a whole other issue. She burned down Teldrassil, and rather than let the Alliance get the win by destroying Undercity nah Sylvanas gets to destroy that too as part of her 5D chess game.

[Aurirel-wyrmrest-accord]

I don’t think it is unreasonable at all for Droite to bring up the Horde having a lot more tools since the early WoW days. Even with playing loose with warfare rules and rule of cool/drama, a side having it’s tools it actually has is an obvious ask. Same reason it’s dumb the Vindicaar was not used for at least troop deployment and the occasional gate/wall bust, with a threat of Horde mages/goblin azerite enchanced weaponry limiting it’s use.

The Night Elves only really have some mages added to their arsenal, otherwise having a bunch of “if nature is in apocalyptic peril” allies. The problem, among everything wrong with the genocide plot, is the lack of satisfying striking back story that wasn’t this weird, dumb night warrior subplot. Adaption rather than more godlike power that runs into plot armor problems with the other faction actually needing to still have a fighting chance would have been a good start.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Dardillien-wyrmrest-accord

No, there is a difference. Alliance just destroyed Tirisfal down the middle, not the ENTIRE zone. Teldrassil was an ENTIRE zone and it was completely destroyed. I don’t understand how people can’t see the difference…

That “middle” included Brill as well as the Undercity. So yes maybe there’s a stretch of land and some mob areas that are still there, but the point still stands.

Brill got considerably more use than Dolanaar as an RP area, at least on Earthen Ring.

[Elluriah-bloodsail-buccaneers]

Going to quote a reply to this from someone else in a discord I frequent cause I feel like it merits being repeated here in the forums. It’s a bit harsher than I would prefer to phrase things but something being blunt is needed.

First off - I do want to call out what this is. Droite seems to sputter into a rage whenever anyone suggests that anyone could defeat her shining perfect goblins in any scenario ever. When Droite gets personally insulted over claims that the Night Elves should be able to defeat them, she means that she thinks that the Goblins should have been able to rampage through their home territories with no difficulty imposed by either the terrain, the logistics, or their opponent. That’s an insane and unreasonable power fantasy when it’s done against any playable race - but this is where this argument is coming from. As for the supposed lack of adaptation…

• During Warcraft 3, Wardens obtained goblin land mines. Tyrande used them.
• The previously xenophobic Night Elves joined the alliance, accepting work from and with mages for the first time since the War of the Ancients
• During Vanilla, the Night Elves relaxed gender restrictions for druids, priests, and sentinels.
• During Wrath, the Night Elves began to accept and use Death Knights. - We have in-lore examples of Night Elves using guns.
• There are Night Elves in Cataclysm that state that they’re comfortable using guns.
• During Cataclysm, the Night Elves worked hand-in-glove with the gnomes in Stonetalon, using several of their devices
• During Cataclysm, the Night Elves were using cannons.
• During Cataclysm, the Night Elves accepted Highborne mages.
• During Cataclysm, the Night Elves accepted Worgen
• this being a departure from Malfurion’s earlier prohibition.
• In Elegy, the Night Elves use shipborne cannons and mages, those being defeated by catapults and Sylvanas, respectively.