Give me examples? Any advancement to their Navy? Any advancement to their Air power? Any advancement to their Artillery? They’ve added a few mages to their roster with the Shen’drelar, but that is a very controlled minority group for cultural reasons. The NE armed forces are also frankly overspecialized, with a hyper fixation on Guerilla tactics in friendly terrain. Chief among them, their sentinels (which is largely what their Air Power and Navy is meant to support … transport). They also do not hold a monopoly on Guerilla Warfare by any stretch of the imagination.
In fact, one of the more surreal examples of this hyper specialization is actually in Surumar. If you approach Tyrande as a Horde player, she complains that you and these “Mana Addicts” find yourselves on the threshold of the city of her birth. If you talk to Liadrin as an Alliance, she merely complains about how the types of troops Tyrande brought with her are not designed for prolonged city sieges; which means that her BEs will have to shoulder more of the burden. Which, she’s right. Outside of the Ancient the NEs brought, they were mostly specialized for scouting and speed.
Only partly. The Orcs in wc3 face only a small front of the night elves, a small part of their army. The main army was not yet there, which saved the orcs from certain death.
And like i said before, i don´t want to repeat me, but the Ne adapt allways new tactics against their enemys? If you try to overcome them with technik, they use terrain and other stuff against you, for example, the Wind. As the Goblins put Ashenvale in Flames, they used their potent magic to blew the fire in their face, to force them to retreat with the goblins own Tactic. In some cases, they even simply overgrew the machines, which also made them unusable.
Or the Goblin-Shreders, they make them useless and put them in the earth. The Magnatauren had never been fought before, it was a surprise, that’s why the Worgen and Varian had to save them, but I’m very sure they have an answer by now.
As I said, they are not as rigidly military as you always imagine them to be. They are not so rigid in general, they are the opposite, they are like nature, they adapt easily to their environment and the terrain. They have the cultural theme of returning to what they once were, but they are not as stagnant as you like to imagine them.
Its not that they are incapable of adapting to new tech and tactics of their enemy, its that they are slow to do so … and strangely there is this expectation that they be so proficient at it when they do … they don’t have change anything about how they fight. They just meant to invalidate their opponents strengths. We are talking about a group of people who have remained largely in a state of stasis and peace for 10k years, who have now had the rapidly changing world around them thrust upon them again.
To some extent, their difficulties do make some sense since all of this is hitting them all absurdly rapidly in (from their perspective) a tiny fragment of time. For the most part, Time was a currency with very little value for the NEs until the 3rd war; and they are now sitting right next to a plethora of people who didn’t have that luxury. Time is probably the currency with the MOST value for most Kali Horde races. They can’t afford to squander it … so change likely to be consistently rapid.
EDIT: Frankly, the NEs have done almost nothing over the last 18 years to actually maintain the once immense Military lead they held on the Kali continent, and yet they are just expected to just maintain it.
Where did the High Elves change their battle tactics? Where did the trolls change their battle tactics, it always remained the same, where did the humans change them or the dwarves? You can blame this stagnation on all races, even the orcs.
Of course, everything happens very quickly from the elves’ point of view, but they hold their own, they adapt and react to things very quickly now.
The fact that combat tactics don’t change much is because blizz doesn’t focus on that. There are themes linked to the way of fighting. Like orcs and the berserker assault horde style or the stealthy of the Forsaken.
In general, the strategic responses to situations in WOW are stagnant because the themes of the races do not change.
PS: Neither did the Horde, and the night elves still haven’t really exhausted their repertoire.
What Night Elves are allowed to use in WoW: Sentinels, Saber Riders, Mages, the occasional glaive thrower.
What Night Elves have:
Sentinels
Saber Riders
Glaive Throwers
Hippogryph Riders
Chimeras
Ancients of multiple flavors
Stone Giants
Treants
Dryads
Mages
Our Heroes aren’t even allowed to go all out when they fight. Malfuron can wrestle and maintain control of a damned Tornado but when it’s time to fight the Horde all he can do is lumber around in bear form???
Easy to go “Lawl stagnation” when we’re missing 75% of our arsenal.
No you really can’t. The High Elves have faced no real pressures to adapt after the Sunwell was fixed, but they got absolutely brutalized when they allowed their isolationist tendencies to get the better of them … and the world came crashing into their lives again. And they did adapt heavily from that. And the BEs have never been portrayed as being stagnant at least in terms of Arcane Specialization and Tech. Its why Rommath is even in Surumar, to learn from them. To talk Arcane shop with these living relics of the Highborne civilization. They are still internally interested in forward growth, its just slower.
And, you’re right about the Trolls. But do you know what the Trolls story has been for over 10k years due to their refusal to change and adapt? They’ve been pushed to the breaking point, lost all their lands, and quite a few of their tribes (some as big as the Drakkari) have been made extinct. The only Trolls that are even doing halfway decent anymore are those that got over themselves enough to join the Horde. An both the Zandalari and Darkspear are far from recovered, they’re just no longer in as blatant decline because of that choice. So why are the NEs exempt from the same stories that have damned the Trolls?
EDIT: As for Orcs? I don’t think a single race has gone through more cultural and tech changes in such a short amount of time more than they? Just look at the difference between original Org, and Cata Org. How about Cata Org, and the Underhold? They may be adopting a lot of Gob tech, but that change is absurd.
There is a big difference between the isolation of the High Elves and the “isolation” of the Night Elves.
You should notice from the fact that I have written it in inverted commas that it was not really isolation. Of course, a part of the night elves lived isolated in the forests around Nordrassil, but the night elves were always aware of everything that happened in the whole world, thanks to the bond with the Dream.
They knew about the portal and the arrival of the orcs, they knew about the Scourge, they knew about the Saronite all over the world, it was all for them to observe and know from the dream. Well, this loredetail ultimately destroyed a lot of things, and left unanswered questions, but we know they weren’t as isolated as we always assumed, they just hid well and worked out of hiding.
For example, they even helped in the great troll war, something no one knew before, but now we know since recent lore. Shandris herself fought in that war.
Knowing is not an impetus for change, nor does it give you the capacity to adapt simply by prevue of surface details. Knowledge does not equate to Proficiency. Unless, the expectation is that the NEs be portrayed as infallible. Because, then, they should be able to adapt and change immediately to any problem posed to them; to such an extent they don’t have to change anything tangible about themselves to do it. Which is why I say that the expectation isn’t that they “adapt”, the expectation is that they “invalidate”. They don’t need to change, they’re too good for that. They just make other races strengths not count.
God … the expectation truly is that “since they started better than the common mortal races, they remain better than the common mortal races. The NEs are superior by virtue of their birth, and must remain such”.
In a military sense, adapting to the enemy’s military strategy is a clear superiority. Of course, they didn’t change and absorb everything, but they developed military strategies against the attackers because they knew their strategy and could learn from it without being noticed themselves.
What I mean by observing is not that they knew what everyone was doing and could observe everything, but they could observe from the dream and intervene when necessary. You have to remember, night elves are the mortal sentinel/Guardian race, appointed by the Aspects themselves for this purpose.
As you saw, the magnataurs were a nasty surprise and they were not infallible, but if they could adapt to it and there is no blitzkrieg/surprise attack, they are quite capable of adapting to it. For example, before the Magnataurs’ intervention, 50 Sentinels stopped the entire Horde army because they knew what they were up to. They forced them into a situation where just a laughable disadvantage number was enough to stop Garrosh’s army.
That was not my argument. My argument is that they are not as stagnant as you accuse them to be.
The “positive” content for the Forsaken -won´t comment on Nelves, don´t care enough about them for that- is basically to avoid the current direction their story os taking them to (A.K.A. send Calia & the whole Alliance cancerous characters to the stratosphere and let them actual Forsaken rebuild and find a purpose while they get help from their Horde allies. This doesn´t even have to happen in Tirisfal).
What strategies? What changes? They haven’t tangibly changed a god damned thing. Its always MORE stealth, MORE nature, MORE friendly terrain advantage. And more of the same results in just invalidating massive changes and adaptations of their opponents. And if that doesn’t work, just hope some DemiGod or God can bail you out of your problems; like with the NightWarrior.
50 Sentinels stopped the Horde because that’s what Blizz wanted. Its not that it actually made sense. The NEs change and adapt immediately to any new tech or tactics the Horde fields, to the point where they don’t really have to change or adapt a god damned thing. They just become so proficient with whatever they’re facing so quickly that they just get to invalidate it. Yet the Horde can never be allowed to adapt to the 10k year old tech and tactics the NEs still over rely on; that they designed largely to battle against the Legion and Highborne. That’s how things work.
The tactics of the night elves are not 10,000 years old. And you say they always have the same answer? I have to disappoint you there, of course, in 15,000 years they have seen a lot, much better magical and technologically advanced races than we have today. They faced Mogu, Zandalari during their primetime and emerged victorious, they beat the Vyrkul in the north who were also an advanced civilization at that time and forced the earthen to retreat to their halls when they also drove out the Yaungol, then they fought demons in all colors of the rainbow, against old gods and their insectoid servants, against nightmares, against dragons, against elementals, heck, I think the night elves are the ONLY race in all of WOW that has done nearly as much to protect Azeroth as us Hero SC’s, and we are the official saviors of AZEROTH. Don´t you think, in all this year and fights, you develope answers on almost everything?
You can argue that their culture tends to stagnate, which by the way every culture in WOW does, but you can’t argue that this results in military weakness, because they have always found answers to the enemy troops. Sometimes I have the feeling that everyone forgets this, but the night elves are immortal not only for 10,000 years, but since their emergence, 15,000 years ago. At that time, the WOE did that.
An example of this diversity and adaptation is, for example, the countless splits of Druidism, one sometimes has the feeling that there is a Druid sect for every letter in the alphabet.
Last time I checked warfare in the Middle Ages was painfully short of flying ships, mecha tanks, and magic. Any one of which throw the typical medieval model off the battlements.
Whud? Since when is 7 “countless” (and I´m being generous by including the Zandalai branch too in the count)? Heck, the “countless” druid branches are basically a justification for the 4 specs and like the 2 travel forms, period.
In comparison Trolls easily beat druidism “diversity” considering they indeed have a cult for every Loa there is in every troll tribe that exist.
Tl;dr “Nelves are the BEST race on Azeroth and the MOST advanced and they CAN´T lose to lesser beings like the Horde races”.
Druids of Branch
Druid of Antlers
Druids of the Fang
Druids of the Claw
Dreamweavers
Druids of the Fin
Druids of the Moon
druids of the Scynthe
Druids of the Talon
Ashon
Druid of the wild
Funny that no one can read today, it is not about the strength, but it is about the fact that they have already fought so many ENEMIES that there is little left of mortal peoples, which surprises them.
ty for not able to read, its about Adaption of enemy forces strategy, not about power or strength.
Rommath was actually brought up in Legion as a key example of the Blood Elves’ isolationist tendencies:
Esara Verrinde <Magisters>
Do you enjoy traveling, <player>? As the Magisters’ Seeker of Wisdom, I am on the road quite a bit. I find it strange that most sin’dorei dislike it so much. But then I am not like most sin’dorei, as they never fail to remind me.
I am a bit of misfit, to be honest. Most sin’dorei are content to live out their entire lives within the confines of Silvermoon City. However I found it stifling after so many years living on Draenor. I’ve never been one to hold my opinions back…
When Grand Magister Rommath asked me to leave and become the Magisters’ Seeker of Wisdom, it was a relief for us both.
And often in Suramar what was shown was that the Blood Elves thought that the Nightborne were using outdated methods:
It is really child’s play when you consider the magical weaves. I can see the flaws with just a few minutes of study.
When you pick up “Nullified” the quest giver even has additional broadcast text:
Magus Sendath says: All the “mastery of the arcane” at their disposal and they still were not prepared for a pyroblast to the face. I almost feel sorry for them. Almost.
Druids of the Branch = Resto
Anbtlers = ground travel form, but fundamentally same as others
Fang = extintc and irrelevant (ergo we´re counting them why?)
Claw = Guardia spec
Dreamweavers = same as any druid they´re just direct alumni of Cenarius
Fin = Aquatic travel form, but fundamentally same as others
Moon = same as any druid, just involving Elune worship (like all and any Nelf out there?)
Scythe = corrupted by magical artifact, same as any druid
Talon = flight travel form, but fundamentally same as others
AshEn = Feral spec
… call me crazy but I don´t see terrible differences apart from the 4 based on gameplay specs for the class? Cause if you think differences in travel forms OR merely name change makes them an absolute innovative military design, then Trolls have them beaten by far.
Do you even read what you post? You keep implying their long lives figting people´s outdated technnologies = them somehow having the mental faculties to beat new technologies by default.
European had milenia of fighting local threats and several examples of technnology, that didn´t prevent a band of “savages” (in comparison ofc) like the Mongols from kicking their behinds spectacularly. So lucky Genghis died.
The amount of people yopu fight against is irrelevant if the people coming has small but relevant technnological and psychological tools to beat you, period.
Says the poster implying Nelves by proxy of being love lived HAVE TO defeat other races´military wise or else. That´s not adaptation, that´s massive plot armor.
We are talking about Lore here, not the shapes they have in gameplay. In lore, for example, the Druid of the Antlers is a powerful healer, and is able to heal corruption like no one else, gametechnically he is a traveling form.
Because you assume that we are further today than then. But that is not the case. We are playing in a post-zenith world. The zenith has been passed, the cultures and civilization of the past were more developed and powerful and had performed miracles that are no longer possible today.
That’s why what the night elves use is effective, it’s not something new, so to speak, it’s something rediscovered.
I argue all the time about the ability of adaptation, not about anyone who defeat each other, you do Because you feel attacked in your ego, for whatever reason.
My argument is and remains: Because the night elves had so many enemies over the course of 15,000 years, they also found many answers to fight this or that. That is all. It is the sum of their military experience.Whether they win or not depends on other factors, because they don’t win every time. They have only found answers to fight against it as effectively as possible within their parameters.
A stagnant nation would perish
Let’s take the constructs as an example:
The Mogu and Zandalari fight with such units. Only they are more developed, the night elves found an answer, better said, had to find. When the goblins arrived with their shredders, the tactics had to be adapted somewhat, but not developed anew.
If anything this is the opposite point as Droité, who is infatuated with the idea that the Horde advances its technology in the face of the threats that come against it and so it “doesn’t make sense” that the unadaptive (savage) Night Elves keep beating them.
Belves DO get portrayed as adapting new magical technnologies they can find -ofc with safety and responsability involved after TBC -reason why Umbric et al got kicked out and their research outlawed, not because it was useless but because it was unsafe-. And as you posted, they have a “Seeker of Wisdom” job. Which implies they are always researching new magical developments too.
The fact actually portrays why is Rommath the Grand Magister: cause even if he doesn´t leave Quel´thalas frequently, he Is interested and involved in the political and magical bussiness elsewhere, always looking for new sources of magical knowledge.
Again, if we talking about lore then the basis of the knowledge is quite similar between all the druid organizations. It´s not “new knowledge” not “new technnology”… is just same variant of Nature with focus in x or y.
Mongols weren´t further than the Europeans (they didn´t invade with tanks and planes to kick those knights dear); we coud argue even they were BEHIND the Europeans in several aspects of their culture technnologically wise. And they still terrirized and conquered.
And that´s the point regarding the Nelves… they got kicked in the WoT same as Europeans did historically: a combination of WTF unexpected military tactics and pyschological terror, period. And the writers were magnanimous enough to give them plot armor in trhe form of absent army.
Actually no, it isn´t. If Bliz gave actual realism to the technnologies portrayed in-game, the world would be owned by the Gobs, the Gnomes and the Draenei -whose tech is old but actually STILL in the zenith travel in the space era-, who have actual weapons of massive destruction in their arsenals.
Ergo, Nelves have plot armor, period.
I´m not the one saying 15.000 of fighting the same tech as usual = “adaptation”. Cause that ISN´T adaptation. As a matter of fact Nature proficiency is a terrible example of quick adaptation cause it´s own adaptation process is a VERY long lasted one (reason why massive extinction events exist; cause naturally existing species were UNABLE to adapt fast enough to avoid death).
So when you say people using the same tools of 15.000 years ago are “peak adapt examples” while we have races with intercontinental missiles, massive chemical AND biological weapons and space ships it´s incoherent AF. The only reason Nelves survive is because the actual narrative ignore all of the above in favor of portraying the fights as if suddenly everybody forgot they had those tools available and we´re all back to medieval age.
Actually the problem is devs forgetting the actual weapons of mass destruction present in BOTH Horde and Alliance races in favor of portraying “war battles” in medieval esque times. Cause when you think the only thing Horde needed to do to destroy Darnassus was to launch the cannon is laugh worthy, and the only thing the Alliance had to do to reciprocate was to bomb with the Vindicar is laughable too.
Nelves + mostr of the races “win” cause plot armor, NOT because actual adaptation.
Because you feel attacked in your ego, for whatever reason.