Content to remedy the intolerable Night Elf and Forsaken situations

So I remember the scenario with the voidelves quite differently.

The blood elves were portrayed as objectively right, only the voidelves naturally do not see themselves as “wrong” in the self-image, Umbrics group was even called extremists, they believe fanatically in their idea, regardless of the cost.

The voidelves see themselves as betrayed, and the voidelves say it was not wrong, that does not change the fact that the blood elves were objectively correct in their assumption that the void was a danger to the well.

The narrative does only one thing here, on the one hand it represents the objectively right, and on the other hand it lets the voidelves “speak” as they themselves feel it, thus it seems - if you don’t look at the context - that the voidelves are also represented as right, which here however only represents subjective statements of voidelf characters.

We are still talking about the Kalimdor Horde and Kalimdor Alliance.

In the Ek`s: Yes, there is a reason, but what reason would the night elves have to participate there? or even to attack the Horde, nothing would have happened on Kalimdor for the time being, nothing would have changed. The only thing that changed, the only form of “concession” that the Kalimdor Alliance made to the EC Alliance, was the signal of solidarity was to end the trade deal. Which in turn would have put Garrosh on the spot and he attacked again.

Just for the record, the Alliance did not have a High King at the time, so it would not have been a declaration of war by the ALLIANCE, but a declaration of war by Stormwind-an Alliance nation-to the Horde. The others were even against it, and did not want a war.

By the way, this truce - about which you complain here - which was decided between start -WOTLK and start-Cata, was necessary, because otherwise it would not have been possible to defeat the Lich King. Wrathgate and the consequences of it were at the very beginning of WOTLK.

The tournament, Ulduar, Icecrown, all that came later, and needed a truce.

Definitely already more complicated, and would be a reason for war, however, it reveals then unfortunately what Sylvanas really had in mind with the Val’Kyrs, Odyn, the slavery, it saw also the Horde hero that she plays here there 4d Cheese, and it is something larger, what happens here. So not exactly a good motivator if it turns out the other side was right with their damn guess all along and Sylvanas was already back to her shady games here. But in the end it would have been a reason for war.

Bilgerwater and the spything, i thought we had argued about that in the past? :thinking:

I think you’re exaggerating a bit here, as well as with the statement that they don’t learn and always stay in the status quo. The night elves have always adapted and refined their approach to enemies, it’s not like they use the same strategy against demons as they do against orcs/hordes.

What is true, however, is that technologically they do not take the step, but the narrative also shows that they do not have to. They can easily beat any technical machine with magic(Which, by the way, is also a strength of theirs: magic
), even let it sink into the ground, that’s what the narrative shows. But from BFA - as a small point of light at the end of the tunnel - a closer cooperation between Shen’Dralar - Druids - and Moon Priests could emerge. That would be a real advancement, because as of now the mages are more of a sideline, and very little used.

And generally speaking, no one, no race, can ever reach the peak of 10,000 years ago again, we live in a post-zenith scenario. The peak of Azeroth’s civilization in general was 10,000 years ago, this has been passed.

The night elves lost their peak
The Titanforged lost their peak
The Trolls lost their Peak

Now they try to make the best of it.

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Oh, I know that Blizz bothers burying the Alliance under a mountain of justifications for every single aggressive act or shade of grey. They’re honestly pretty obsessed with it. There can’t be a single blemish on the pristine shine. The immaculate paragons of every single virtue ever conceived by man. Even absurdly questionable acts like Stormheim, get handwaved away … even by the Horde who were the victims of that act themselves. Its why, to date, the only person to ever apologize for the Purge of Dalaran is the leader of the Victims … Aethas. Because Jaina and Vareesa were absolutely right in that massacre.

Its just a shame they adamantly refuse to even bother to attempt such with the Horde. Ever. They do not care enough about the Horde to ever even make justifications beyond (lol, they’re Goblins, its what they do), let alone even for a second consider validating those justifications. Frankly, after over a decade of absolutely absurd neglect to even attempt to rebuild the toy they keep smashing against the concrete … its pretty apparent Blizz sees the Horde as little more than a burden to write around when its not being used as a plot-device for a villain to settup a future expansion. Fun to break, not to rebuild.

EDIT: Which is probably why you see this shift into either making Horde leaders little more than accessories for Alliance characters like Baine; or just slamming Alliance characters into Horde leadership positions like Calia (while having other Horde characters constantly doting over both for their wisdom and insight). After all, Blizz has literally created a situation where the only way a member of a Horde race can prove they’re “good” and “have virtue” is by their relationship with the Alliance.

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like i said before, stormheim is a difficult place to argue.

If you ask me, one of the worst things blizz has done. It was absolutely watered down by all the retcons and instead of showing an escalation it was…“A bug” duuh…what a crap.

here i totaly agree 100%, that must be fixed.

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No its not. It doesn’t matter that Genn and Rogers didn’t actually even know what she was really up to even after their attack. What matters is the consequences of it. Of which, there were none. Even among the Horde that was attacked. Which, when combined with Sylvie’s motivations, that attack was 100 percent completely validated and justified. That’s how it works. You’re Alliance, you get buried under justifications.

And yet, they did it. To preserve that justified and flawless sheen. They even went so far as to never bother fixing an apparent “bugged” part of that scenario where Aethas was supposed to stumble upon the theft just after it was completed and being horrified; and admonishing those responsible. He was thus threatened to silence, and forced to choose between subjecting his people to the Wrath of Garrosh (Full on Orc Hitler by the time) or Jaina. He chose Jaina … and yet Blizz made it VERY clear that she and Vareesa were right in what they did through forcing this man to be the one to beg for forgiveness. He’s the leader of the victims of a massacre put into an impossible situation, but because he’s Horde he’s in the wrong.

It wont be. I’d wager Blizz got exactly what they wanted for the Horde out of BfA. A justifiable reason to forever from this point on make the Horde and its character convenient for the Alliance and theirs. They have the perfect excuse now to just make more of their comfort zone expansions like Legion. Where the Horde is just a optional footnote in the stories of the real heroes of this world.

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See there’s a problem with that reasoning. Sylvanas, and the Forsaken, had done enough against both Genn and Rogers for both of them to be really quite justified in seeking reprisal at any point between Cataclysm and then. It’s only because of the legion’s return that reprisal became unwise. Would you have preffered if it happened before that point instead, so that Genn and Rogers would be 100% justified, instead of simply avoiding the repercussions of attacking them at an inopertune time?

They didn’t just avoid the repercussions at an inopportune time … they avoided them period. Even the Horde was not allowed to have an opinion on it, beyond a single thought from Saurfang about Anduin’s lack of response to it proving he was either too weak, or too complacent, to the Hawks of the Alliance. Which Blizz just immediately invalidates as soon as they were able.

That’s the point. The Alliance is always buried under MOUNTAINS of justifications to maintain the flawless persona. The Horde isn’t even allowed justifications, let alone valid ones. The Alliance can’t be allowed to make even understandable mistakes that actually result in tangible consequences. It kind of reminds me of one of those livestreams around 8.2.5 where Ion said something to the effect of “The Alliance hates the Horde for Genocide, the Horde has issues with the Alliance”. The same guy that can’t even be bothered to even think of a single reason why the Horde would be an antagonistic to the Alliance, is the lead dev of a team forcing the Horde to be the antagonists to the Alliance. Its god damned absurd.

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And the Alliance is, for the vast majority of cases, not allowed to seek reprisal for the things the Horde has done against them. Sylvanas and the Forsaken came off scot free after Destroying Gilneas, blighting Southshore with a lot of people in it, and commiting experiments on the survivors after putting them in concentration camps. None of it were answered for, until Stormheim. Why is it that the Horde should get justification for Stormheim when that was the only Revenge the Alliance got for everything the Forsaken did?

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Of course not, because you’re also the more powerful of the two factions.

That is the reason you don’t get to have reprisal a lot of the time. Blizz’s fixated need to make the weaker of the two factions constantly punch up for no other reason than “they’re the faction that’s allowed flaws, thus flaws = evil”. The Alliance thus (normally having Moral Absolutism and a Absolutist Power Fantasy outside of faction conflict expansions) has that Moral Absolutism used as a tool and pot-device against that Absolutist Power Fantasy. Its the Alliance’s own Faction Fantasy being used against itself, to give a tangible reason why the “by birth evil, flawed, Horde … cuz they’re evil and flawed” is not just destroyed by now. Because mechanically, you can’t destroy them in a two faction game.

I don’t look at BfA’s Meta-Narrative and think even for a moment the Horde’s needs and presentation as a faction were ever considered enough to stop what Blizz did with us. They knew enough about what the Horde was supposed to represent to flood money into those cinematics, but where totally unwilling to allow the ideals espoused in them to count … until it was convenient for Sylvanas and her settup of SLs that they were. Those cinematics were just lip service. That was the sole priority of BfA, and after that … meh, throw a couple of bandaids on the gaping wound of the Faction Identity left to the Horde. And maybe use it as an excuse to make the Horde more convenient for the Alliance’s stories going forward.

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Laughs in Worgen

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And that has been a millstone around the Alliance’s neck since cataclysm. From my perspective, the Horde beats us into pulp, and then we are forced to forgive and forget, because of reasons. We had enough justification to start the fourth war easily, if you tally everything that happened after wotlk. But we weren’t allowed to. We were simply forced to react to the Horde commiting yet another atrocity against us, while not getting any meaningful revenge or any catharsis.

You mean the Alliance’s character stories, because we don’t have a faction story, and never have.

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True enough.

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I legit choked on my spit when I read that comment from him. I was like This dude for real?. Worgens have been getting mistreated for 10+ Yrs now, but a tree burns 2 yrs ago and NE fans act like they have it the worse out of everyone :face_vomiting:

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I don’t think Blizzard views the Horde as evil. I think they really believe the Saurfang and Sylvanas arc was this deep, beautifully tragic “war is hell” story for the Horde to experience. It is why they have the Horde player cheer “for the Horde” during the quests leading up to what was going to be the start of the siege. “The Horde is strong, the Horde will endure!”

I think they just struggle with actually properly considering the implications of things. They probably really do think the Blood Elves were wronged in the purge, but the people that wrote the mage class hall were too fixated on this notion of Aethas being an incompetent fool (because they thought it would be hilarious) they neglected something important. There is no justification for using a hate group to issue a mass arrest of people, which was poorly justified in itself. Even giving the Alliance argument of the organization as a whole being guilty, how they chose to handle it is unacceptable by any care about rights of a sentient being, especially a citizen. But Blizzard just did not really think that deeply about it in all likelihood.

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To be fair, Night Elves were made to be proud, badass warriors in Warcraft 3 and then since Classic WoW have been defanged and nothing but crapped on by the devs basically.

But agreed Worgen have been screwed since their inception. A lot content for them was cut in Cata and Blizzard just relegated them to being squatters with the Night Elves, which is better than squatting in Stormwind, but still sucks.

I think the main problem is, a lot of NE fans built up the Kaldorei to be this mythical unstoppable army who can steam roll anything in their way, and than cry when it doesn’t happen. A lot of their supposed power isn’t even cannon and comes from their god like allies, like the aspects and Wild Gods.

You take Malfurion, Tyrande and the Kaldorei allies out of the pciture and you realize they aren’t as powerful as people think they are.

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he did not say unstoppable army, he said pride and badass , and that was indeed taken from them in wow.

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I think there is a fair complaint of not having enough scenes of Night Elves being strong and not liking the overall scenario in terms of it’s impact.
There is some hardcore fans though that are like that.

I just think that if Night Elves got to show their fangs more properly (which they should), we should also have what tends to happen when you fight someone several times your size and strength. Not that I was even rooting for the Horde in BFA, though.

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So, the issue is that night elves have existed longer as a not undefeatable faction. Warcraft 3’s portrayal of them is, by contrast, the incorrect one.

Everyone keeps bringing up Cataclysm but then keeps coincidentally forgetting (or lying about the fact) that night elves won every single zone they fought in, in Kalimdor. It’s a giant power fantasy ride. They beat the orcs so bad in Stonetalon that the general bombed the druid academy out of frustration – then he got chucked off of a mesa.

This is an example of what I mean when I repeatedly say: It is not enough. It will never be enough.

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And I said a lot of NE fans built them up to be something they’re not. I’m well aware of what Dard said

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What actually really elevated it to that level was the earlier WOTA, the original one, along with the Corebook lore, and just the latter had the biggest part of it there.

In the Corebook lore, you don’t know if it’s talking about Titans or Night Elves.

They are the oldest people there, origin of all magic and everything else are “lesser” beings. its even said to the other races lesser beings. And corebook were after all canon for 9 years, and used to be argued a lot even before it became noncanon. And even though I’m sure not everyone knows the corebooks anymore, these “descriptions”, this way, even if content-wise, the image has endured.