to be fair, again, The Azshara deal wasn’t made until MOP, so they couldn’t break it before then.
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Just quoting this to demonstrate that Zahirwrite agrees that Might Makes Right and land claims should only be honored if they can be held.
The areas we were talking about were never in the hands of the trolls, never, at any time. We weren’t talking about the whole world, we were talking about northern Kalimdor, but thank you for quoting me.
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My question when you see this is why do have to kill all the diseased bears and other wildlife when he can just wave his magic wand?
And yes, I do mean claim. At the end of the day it boils down to this. The Kali Horde is largely comprised of refugee peoples who have no place to return. Nearly all of which are survivors of near extinction level events within the last 38 years. Now attempting to support 5 different communities in a tiny handful of territories that was already struggling to hold near extinct refugees of 3; as well as the Tauren now settling for the first time in their cultural history, which puts more pressure on their natural environment.
With the primary issue of the Kali Horde being lack of the barest essentials for survival (which IS was the Garrosh war was originally about), and intercontinental supply just being absurdly unrealistic … you are going to have problems. This is a nightmare situation. With a bunch of regularly starving, growing populations sitting right next door to what equates to a bunch of wealthy trust-fund kids waving food just outside their doors. You cannot expect starving people to care about border sanctity, or be convenient.
Thus, Stonetalon, Desolace, and Feralas come to mind. The remaining NE cultural heritage sites in these zones are relatively limited; mostly comprised of Highborne ruins they’d gladly see rot. Maintaining them actually does conceptually weaken NE national defense, by siphoning resources, troops, and talent away from the NE heartland into objectively low-value (overseas) locations; especially since the NEs don’t need the resources from these zones. And, despite not being as lush as most of the northern NE territories, with work (far less work than the Barrens and Durotar would require) there is reasonable arable land, fresh water, and lumber to meet the Horde’s needs. Decreasing that natural pressure for conflict.
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Yes, in the end, it’s about claiming. But by claiming, I mean this miserable discussion on “who has more right to their territories from before”.
The horde can fight for it, can do it. However, it is not about any “who has more right to it” discussion just now.
I’m pretty sure the Shen’Dralar would like to see Eldre’Thalas rebuilt
The Shen’Dralar … are a bit strange. Quite frankly, if it weren’t for the NEs longevity, outside of Arcane Magic usage being accepted with stringent rules back into NE society … I don’t expect any major Highborne cultural norms to survive the societal pressures of the Kaldorei. That minority population was only allowed back in when they were so broken and “humbled” they had no choice but to agree to anything; and that was Malf (a general progressive by NE standards) that enforced that. Tyrande and Maiev are far more hostile.
Thus, Eldre’Thalas is likely going to end up no more valuable than the Ruins of Eldarath. A festering miasma of Highborne decadence meant best forgotten. And if you want a lasting peace (by offsetting the Kali Horde’s horrific natural basic resource situation), and more consolidated national NE defense, then both Stonetalon and Feralas might be worth sacrificing. And that single, Goblin made, pathway through to Ashenvale from the south best destroyed. Plug in a Feathermoon Stronghold into Eastern Ashenvale … and the Horde will never be able to break that sort of garrison backed by those natural terrain advantages.
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I’m sorry, but when an organization launches full conquest war after full conquest war and you still qualify them as “poor widdle refugees”, it’s just hilarious.
Welcome to almost every single race in WoW.
??? It is home to both the biggest Highborne ruins on Azeroth AND the most important Night Elven stronghold on Kalimdor, in addition to many smaller camps. Have you uh… been there before in game?
Whoa, I like how you state this entire headcanon paragraph confidently as if it was a fact.
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HIGHBOURNE ruins! Do you not know your PC race’s relationship with that part of their history? The Shen’Dralar were broken and “humbled” by even the progressive Malf before they were allowed back in, that city is no more valuable than Eldarath was in Vanilla. The NEs hold a 10K year old grudge for that part of their lore. And as for Feathermoon Stronghold, which ONLY dates back to Cata. What good is that garrison doing down there? What enemy are they fighting? What good is Feathermoon herself doing sitting on her hands in some backwater forest? Do you understand that the only definitive overland route down there is either through Horde territories, or a single Goblin-Made path made in STalon?
Yeah … Feralas is tactically nothing more than a drain on NE National Defense. A low value position half a continent away, with nothing to fight. And above all, nothing but trees and festering ruins to defend.
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And what good did it do the horde, nothing, nothing at all. Rather, they harmed themselves more and more heavily with it, and never won anything in the long run with it. And no, the behavior of the Horde did not bring anything good to the Alliance either, before you think that I am saying that the Alliance is doing well. on the contrary, it had to suffer aswell.
The difference is, now the people to whom this ruin belongs are part of their culture and…even celebrated heroes of the war of thorns.
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And part of this is because Blizz absolutely refuses to validate the problems that the Horde are facing; and would rather just make our leaders Orc Hitler instead. Garrosh had a friggen point at the beggining of Cata, before Blizz threw all nuance out the door on him. And “conflict over resources” is probably the single most grey sort of international conflict you can get; when it deals with essentials like Food, Water, and Lumber.
Truth of the matter is, Blizz has so far invalidated any reason for conflict from the Horde by villain batting us, and by making sure the Alliance are maintained these pure personifications of every virtue known to man. There were legitimate reasons for conflict on the Kali continent … its just such a shame that they’ll never be allowed to count again. And Blizz saw fit to simply villain bat twice the faction filled with starving, poor, mostly ex-slave races who have uncomfortably far too many inspirations off of Non-European Cultures; while the very Euro inspired Alliance are portrayed as flawless, pure incarnations of virtue itself.
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Well, the alliance had no reason for war in this time, it was not in a bad shape, if the alliance start the war, you could only have accused the alliance of imperialism as the reason for war…a bad reason, what you mean?
Yes, there were reasons, but it wouldn’t change anything who started the war and was therefore the guilty faction…the Horde, because the Alliance or the Kalimdor Alliance didn’t have all these problems and no real reason for war.
Even with greater acceptance, I do not think that really is going to make the culture as a whole want to spend the resources rebuilding those cities and move there. Frankly it would be rather boring storytelling as another flaw that just has to be removed from an Alliance race. Meanwhile I’m not sure if even Blizzard is certain if the Blood Elves were right to banish who became the Void Elves. On one hand, they have them acknowledge Rommath was right and do have to be bailed out by Alleria’s chance arrival. On the other hand, they claim Silvermoon abandoned them and are willing to oppose them in a war. They also don’t really touch enough on their use of void being evil (because it totally would be part of Sylvanas villainy if they became her lackeys instead).
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ho? silvermoon? Why we talk now about silvermoon?
I was comparing magic acceptance stories. The Night Elves, as part of the Alliance, naturally get one that is positive their image meanwhile the Blood Elves are seemingly made to look bad just so the Alliance can be cool with totally not morally questionable void powers even if Void Elves were transformed and nearly enslaved by the exact reason embracing the void is a stupid idea.
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The Alliance did have reasons to start the war. Just as they did the last one. Hell, if their actions were allowed to actually count, the Alliance started both the last two major conflicts. But Blizz has to always shelter the Blues from their own few grey acts. Varian declaring War on the Horde in WotLK? The NEs severing their trade-pact with the Horde causing a famine? All really in response to an event that cost the Horde 4000 lives too? … Naw, it was Garrosh in Cata who “started it” … because of a conveniently created peace treaty in an in-between expansion book … just in time for Garrosh to break it. So the Villainous Horde (who had done nothing aggressive up until that point) can be the aggressors.
How about the 4th War? The attempted assassination of the Horde’s new Warchief during a full on Legion invasion? Absolutely no disciplinary actions taken against the perpetrators (even against Rogers), making Anduin look weak at best; complacent at worst? The slaughter of Bilgewater civilians in Silithus, that was later retconned to have the Goblins attacking the Explorer’s League first … for no other reasons than “LOL, they’re Goblins! Its what they do!”? Anduin filling Org so full of SI:7 agents civilians were literally tripping over them, to send the deliberate message that “we are always watching”? Naw … none of that counts. The WoT came totally out of nowhere. Stupid, savage, evil Horde!
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i´ll answer tomorow…its late here in german, good night 
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Its also great, because Rommath is totally validated when Alleria turns out to be a WMD to the Sunwell, and thus the entire Sin’Dorei population. And the fact that Umbric justified his dangerous research AND his investment in such through the writings of the Sin’dorei’s greatest traitor (Dar’Khan Drathir) as “its for Silvermoon’s defense”. And then when he and his obsession were rejected by the BEs, he turns right around and claims “The Alliance is more worthy and are more responsible to handle such power”.
And yet its the BEs that are portrayed in the negative light for “betraying” the VEs…
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I’m not even sure what you’re looking for at this point. An entire expansion where the Alliance is comically evil just out of spite? What’s done is done. If you want the Horde to be moved away from the villain bat, don’t advocate for them to start invading Alliance lands just as they finally seem to be heading into a better direction. (read : don’t give a single person all of the power and always pick the worst possible person for the job every single time)
How about something more like “not being insulated to such absurd extremes from their own few shade of grey acts”, or being portrayed as actual people … instead of virtuous concepts that must never be tarnished. They are never allowed flaws beyond getting hit with the nerf and stupid sticks when the Horde has to be a plot device to settup a future expansion. Just get a bit more balance in between the Faction again, so that the only virtue a Horde character is allowed isn’t just how pro-Alliance (or Alliance convenient) they are.
There is sort of an irony that the Faction with actual humans on it is less “human” than the one with the giant Cow people.
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