Raids = weekly lockout and more difficult than failing to time a key
M+ = easier than normal raids, spammable 24/7 with unlimited valour to upgrade your items, awards inflated ilvl loot for failure(participation loot and also awards spammable loot for completing the dungeon.
Content that is as easy as M+ is should not award uncapped valour. It shouldn’t be spammable 24x7, and it should be much more difficult (including not awarding inflated ilvl vault loot for failing to time a run).
So people have to ration game content so they don’t run out of things to do every week?
Then it’s a good thing that keystones can be upgraded to become more difficult…?
Stop the nonsense dude. You’re posting on a level 50 with the Winnebago skin and don’t even have a mythic raid kill.
The point is raid loot is on a weekly lockout, whereas M+ loot isn’t. It’s spammable. It’s easier to do than raids. It guarantees loot, and you get inflated ilvl loot even if you fail to time a key.
It caps at 15’s for loot - which are somewhere comparable in difficulty to end normal/early heroic bosses. But rewards mythic raid ilv loot for failing to even time it.
Why bother killing mythic raid bosses for loot when you can just fail to time 15’s to get a choice of 3 mythic raid ilvl items?
It absolutely does not guarantee loot. The only end game content I do is Mythic+ and I can run ten or more dungeons without getting a single item.
Players can still get loot as long they complete the dungeon. If they fail the timer, they lose a keystone level and have to relevel it to get better gear. They don’t have to do all that with raids, and raids don’t have completion timers to begin with.
To be fair though, the OP has a valuable point.
Consider this: you can upgrade tier from PVP and PVE via keys. Tier had always been raid specific loot. But with it going all over, and having upgrade paths via conq and valor, you now have tier being more valuable from sources other than the raid. In addition to the sheer fact that M+ is much more lucrative.
He’s got a point. Raiding has become more and more unnecessary and keys have become a much more effective path of gearing in almost all regards. The problem with M+ was refarming the same things over and over every season leading to dull interactions such as people needing to farm the Changeling from Mists or the Scale from DOS. With this new method of gearing from Blizzard, they’re trying to address it.
But in SL especially, filling out a raid team has become increasingly difficult because a lot of people don’t even see a point to it when you get everything better from simpler content which is less of a nightmare to do. Both involving logistics and just straight performance.
Nah you don’t get it. You have to play M+ else Blizz can’t get their engagement metrics. And M+ is such a good system that it would never be able to survive if they made the gear from it irrelevant for raiding so of course we can’t do that.
That’s why there’s M+ so you wont hit your head on the wall.
With M+, you could progress in gear. Then go back to that same Raid you have problems with… and it would become easier with your upgraded gear.
It’s better to get gear upgrades somewhere else than banging your head to the same wall over and over with the same unupgraded gear.
This is a fair point.
Even Mythic raiders get most of their gear from M+.
There’s one guy working on raids and another guy working on dungeons. They’re both straight out and haven’t had a chance to talk to each other since 9.2.0
Also the fact that Blizzard stuffed SL with 2 of the least-enjoyable raids in history.
AND has increasingly made raiding a second job, since you have to do so many things outside of raid, just TO raid.
Yes, and it’s even worse for heroic or normal only guilds. After you clear the raid once, there’s no incentive for reclears.
I was fully decked out from M+ (clearing 15’s, but even if i wasn’t timing them it wouldn’t have mattered) before we even got AoTC. And even then, the raid drops were far worse than the loot I got from M+.
All my tier is from M+ items converted. I finished S3 wearing nothing that dropped in the raid, was at 279ilvl.
Cleared CN and SoD so far in S4. Got no drops. A guildie rolled and levelled a new character for S4, ran something like 60 m+ so far and he’s at 298 ilvl already. Drops + valour upgrades.
What’s the point again of clearing the raid?
it’s a bit of a weird season. i hope they dont slack like this in the future.
they said it was a test… let’s hope they got the data they were after and never do it again 
i just hope they’ll slow down on the recycling of old material. im actually glad to move on and forget the content when an xpack is over. bringing it back just feels bad.
relearning things you gladly forgot about… meh.
Have you taken into consideration that the loot table for dungeons is being propped up by Mechagon rings and tazavesh loot pretty much?
Ehh raids usually slow other parts of the game down for everyone else. Usually raids release first. Just like they will for dragon flight and everything else gets delayed so raiders don’t feel forced to do stuff to prepare for new raids.
At this point it’s obvious they completely abandoned what would probably have been a patch or two of extra Shadownlands content, to work on Dragonflight. They’re completely abandoning SL. They probably have a small team maintaining SL.
What are you talking about? Raiders have been compelled by overtuned raids to spam the hell out of Mythic+ at the start of each raid, since Nighthold.
So what? You going to state facts or make a point?
Because it’s fun and challenging.