So, I recently (yesterday), finished the campaign for the third time on an alt Paladin, and noticed something I never really paid much attention to the first 2 times I went through.
Once you finish you get the chat bubbles where you can click the character and get the “stay awhile and listen” option to get a bit of character interactions.
I listened to Thrall talk to his mother about his doubts about the whole thing with Garrosh, to which she replied that Garrosh made his own decisions and Thrall was not to blame. I get that some people might disagree with what she said, but in essence it was her saying that Garrosh would need to take responsibility for his own actions.
I then listened to Uther talk to Jaina in which he basically blamed everything on Devos, said she led him astray.
I just thought it was odd that one message was “take responsibility for your own actions”, and the next message was “it was not my fault, I was led astray”.
Uther had his soul split into two, while Garrosh did not. Uther’s soul-splitting meant that a part of his consciousness was “frozen in time.” The part of his soul that went to Bastion was fixated on Arthas, making it much easier for him to be manipulated by promises of revenge.
Well, the specifics of both situations are a bit different. And yeah Thrall is to blame to some degree about how Garrosh turned out, no matter what they want to say. However, Garrosh also refused to accept his actions were wrong until the very end and was willing to have his soul blown to bits on that point.
Uther was a damaged soul lacking the parts of himself that gave him the capacity for forgiveness, and Devos well… they sort of lead each other down a dark path which Zovaal was all too happy to exploit. It was a sad situation all around that the Archon could of avoided by just listening instead of shutting Devos down.
I am just not sure I agree with this. While everything you said is true, Uther was able to figure out on his own that what he was doing was wrong. If he was able to figure it out with his soul being split, that implies, while it would be much harder, he could of came to the same conclusion before he performed those actions.
I am not saying that he is completely absolved of his actions, but it puts it into context a little bit better. I wonder about how exactly his mental state was.
I am not going to say you’re wrong as I am unsure of the exact lore behind everything that happened between Garrosh and Thrall. But did Garrosh ever come out and ask Thrall for help? I don’t mean other Horde leaders asking, I mean, did Garrosh himself ask Thrall for help?
If he did not, then Thrall holds no blame imo. And this is coming from someone who really really dislikes Thrall. If however, he asked for help, and Thrall “was to busy with the Earthen Ring” to help, then I agree that he should take some of the blame.
And to put into context I really liked Garrosh. Mainly because then and now he was “not” repenting his actions, he thought he was right and stuck with it.
I think they should be very deliberate about how soul splitting works and how both are affected. I agree with you, what’s good for the geese is good for the gander. If Uther isn’t at fault because of what happened to his soul then that should be made clear.
The whole Garrosh situation came about when Thrall put him in charge even when Garrosh himself said he was not ready. Garrosh was crushed under the weight of the Hellscream legacy, and went down a very bad path trying to live up to it without the guidance of Thrall who sort of just… bailed. Thrall never really wanted to be a leader and was pretty quick to try to escape those responsibilities and expectations.
He really just wanted to live the simple life despite the fact that sort of thing was impossible for a guy like him. We saw him trying super hard out in Outland, though, though they make a point of showing it is a hollow fake of his idealistic life.
No, after being made Warchief Garrosh never turned to Thrall for help. However when Thrall went to make Garrosh Warchief in The Shattering novel Garrosh initially told him no that he didn’t think he could do it but Thrall convinced him. The in-game moment for the Cataclysm pre-event just shows Thrall appointing Garrosh and Hellscream accepting. So while you have people just blaming Thrall for appointing Garrosh Warchief, those who read the novel blame him for convincing him to take the position.
Something that people forgot though is that in that same speech Thrall spoke of the importance of allies and having advisers that can offer different views and avenues such as Eitrigg and Cairne. However overtime Garrosh ignored that advice, did things his own way, and eventually just surrounded himself by those who would echo his thoughts and views.
So while I do feel that Thrall deserves some responsibility for making someone who admitted that he wasn’t ready for it, Warchief and even having tunnel vision over Garrosh being Grom’s son, I do think more people need to acknowledge that Draka is correct in that Garrosh made his own choices.
I agree with everything you said except this part. Garrosh, as I have stated could have said no. While I 100% recognize that peer pressure, or the thirst to prove yourself to, in this case Thrall, and to live up to Gromash’s legacy put undue pressure on Garrosh, at the end of the day it was still his decision to make, and he chose to become Warchief.
That’s fair and perhaps a second refusal could have made Thrall decide to accept and seek another candidate. Like say recalling Nazgrel from Outland, turning to Eitrigg, or even deciding to move past that Warchief must be an orc mindset and have Cairne or Vol’jin step up, and if he was still determined to have Garrosh as a leader he could have requested that guide the orcs in his absence while having a team of veterans like Eitrigg and Nazgrel aid him.
My thoughts are this, Thrall was not responsible for the attrocities Garrosh committed. He was however still responsible for putting someone inexperience on the Throne, and what is probably worse, he put him their because of some misguided believe about “orcish pride,”(the final Sha being the perfect metaphor).
What this means in practice as for what he should to do to atone/to actually be better is less clear. At the very least he seems to have reverse some of his earlier decisions(like not letting Horde who commited crimes against the Alliance not face Alliance justice) and his whole we need an orc leading us stance.
You can tell that blizzard was more or less forced to have the Archon just ignore Devos’ concerns about a weapon of the maw on a mortal world because the Kyrians did not appear during WC3 - Wrath outside of them being retroactively becoming the spirit healers. And even then, they were more of a game mechanic until Cata where we met one in the lore. Whom was dating Azuregos at the time. I do feel that Blizzard should’ve came up with a better reason why the Archon did nothing personally.
Adding to this, it was also done to keep the Jailers plans hidden from his siblings. I mean if the Archon took Devos seriously, she would’ve reported this to the Primus. However she would’ve learned that the Primus is MIA for a long time. Tipping off the House of Eyes to investigate his disappearance and probably would’ve learned about the Jailers schemes. And this is a sign of bad writing. Characters being made to act stupid so the plot can continue.
One thing I am realizing while reading this thread is how much of the negative view of Thrall’s choice is based on a novel. The “orcish pride” stuff and the bit where Thrall has to convince Garrosh to accept the offer are both found only in the book, and those seem to be the things that turn people off.
I also wonder whether the author of that novel is the one who wrote the Thrall and Draka scene, and whether it is intended as damage control. (Mild conspiracy theory: Was this author even ordered by the higher-ups to put that scene in because they realized that the book had damaged Thrall’s image in the eyes of the fans?)
Maybe my memory is faulty… but in the lead up to WotLK, didn’t Garrosh challenge Thrall to a Makgora? And they were in the middle of fighting, but it got interrupted, and didn’t end with a clear victor?
Garrosh had challenged a Makgora already. He clearly had no problem assuming the mantle of Warchief prior to WotLK. But afterward, after he is more experienced, he thinks he isn’t ready?
Just seems hard for me to swallow his whole humble act, when he was already gunning for the position.
Yeah, this really bummed me out about the Horde. It sort of canonized or solidified the idea that only Orcs could be Warchief. As if the other races were simply subservient to Orcs, instead of equals. It didn’t sit well with me.
It also made Thrall seem kinda racist - especially since he was reared by humans, so it makes for a weird scene. As if he didn’t have faith in his people being civilized, because he was raised better.
I think this could be chalked down to fundamental cultural differences between the Horde and Alliance, and their principle races.
Orcs are an unapologetic lot at the best of times, and the idea of taking responsibility for your hand in someone else’s downfall runs contrary to that. Garrosh was 1000% Orc. He was the purest most distilled form of Orc there ever is, the Orciest of the Orcs. That he obliterated his own soul believing he was right is a product of that and lines up perfectly with Draka’s view of, “It’s his fault, not yours.”
Conversely on the Alliance side of things, Uther realizes he was wrong and analyzes that. Humans act more as a group than with focus on the individual. When someone goes bad, everyone reflects on it, trying to understand why rather than simple go, “Well, they made their bed and are sleeping in it now.” Each individual focuses on their actions and what might have led to that end. Just as Uther blames himself for Arthas failing and becoming the Lich King, so he accepts that Devos led him astray as well.
The interesting thing is that in the case of both Thrall and Uther we see that rare overlap between the two cultures: both individuals taking responsibility. Thrall is a part of the Horde council now, despite not wanting to be. Uther is bringing the Forsworn home and helping them reintegrate into the Kyrian.
At the end of the day the Alliance and Horde do have common ground, and these stories are a microcosm of that.