The thing is, this is not a melee class, it’s the Hunter Class, and:
For a Classes core identity, these defensive improvements, if limited just to MSV, would be divisive. And, nothing is free.
How would the greater survivability be paid for? Traditionally, we were/are glass cannons that hit hard. No one wants to give up dps… for more survivability.
Lets be real, when your core rotation is centered around building melee strike stacks in a short amount of time frame. You’re a melee spec.
If you’re talking class fantasy, I’m not going to retread thousands of other posts since Legion to argue the range vs melee hunter architype.
Any other melee class is just as/more capable of putting out as high damage as a survival hunter without the defensive tradeoffs. Our strength is mobility and being able to have ways of kiting/evading. All I’m saying is that the DF iteration of surv is emphasizing our DPS through melee combat with abilities that require high melee engagement. More so than previous iterations of surv.
Spearhead - charge
mongoose bite - need to stay in melee to build stacks (I don’t see many surv builds using raptor strike anymore)
flanking strike - charge
coordinated assault - charge (even though this ability is centered around ranged abilities for some reason?)
Anyways I could be off base, but I think I’ve felt this way about survival for a long while now. Craven Stratagem lego absolutely carried survival for the course Shadowlands to offset our defenses, and I fear that we are going to be at a disadvantage without something to cover us on that front.
I didn’t want to clutter this thread with a massive post, so I wrote up an analysis of the biggest remaining issues I see in the Survival tree and the Hunter class tree:
Highlights:
I’d love to talk and hone these ideas if anyone has agreements/disagreements, other angles to think of, etc.
I tried to keep my suggestions as minor as possible with the hope that they could actually still be implemented at this stage in development.
Looking at the BM tree and rest of the specs why do we have so many 2 and 3 point talents? You end up having to miss core abilities or sacrifice a lot to make the spec subpar. Thrill of the hunt is 3 points why? When it is a stacking talent. Same with Stomp, Scent of Blood the talent point cost are to much. Even beast cleave should only be one talent point. Talents that give significant dmg like 20 to 40% I can get why it would be 2 points. Make the tree fun for the specs so you feel like you don’t need to miss the base line abilities that make the spec what it is and at the same time be able to experiment with new talents. Make the game fun and players will be happy break you class tree like the way you doing these Hunter specs it’s just going to be a huge disappointment to your players. Thanks
Man feral just a ton of great revisions. The dev there is understanding his playerbase really well.
At this point surv doesnt even touch feral for quality of tree. Just, no where close.
Anyways, i was able to get on the PTR and test surv. The following are what i got out if it.
Do note, this is for the bomb build with CA. This is in no specific order.
What needs fixed.
I just couldnt bring myself to try the ST build. I was already bored with the aoe rotation. I might torture myself this weekend with it.
As opposed to the current version, of not applying any SS — only refreshing it?
The difference here is window value when holding charges for burst. Carve gets 4 uses in CA. Butchery gets 6. The charge-limited burst option is for… charge-banked burst. It’s not attempting to also get the same average CDR per minute atop that, only the same or greater relative value within its synergetic builds. If you ask for sustained CDR atop that, Carve becomes a non-option and everyone is obliged to bank charges.
Applying and refreshing of course. Basically the return to the former version. With hydra only applying SS to 3 targets and the current green bomb only applying and refreshing SS on 3 targets, the use is incredibly clunky when the soft cap for aoe is 5 targets.
“If you ask for sustained CDR atop that, Carve becomes a non-option and everyone is obliged to bank charges.”
I was already under the assumption that carve was a non-option tbh. When one takes the bomb build, the goal is two-folded. 1. Reduce the cd on bombs. 2. Bursting adds by holding butchery charges and maintaining SS. That way you get the extra dmg from green bomb and you can get 3 stacks of bleed from blue bomb in multiple targets. If i am correct, then the only way carve would overtake butchery is long-term sustained 5 target cleave which is very rare.
A short-lived DF version? Again, until now, Volatile Bomb has never applied Serpent Sting. It only refreshes it, thus rewarding setup.
It’s most likely the change from refresh to application that applied this stunted target cap. Pick one or the other.
Personally, I’d sooner keep the mere refresh and not be limited to 3 enemies thus affected.
It wouldn’t be given as a choice if it wasn’t meant to be an option.
Then why would you want, atop all those advantages, for Butchery also to give more CDR than Carve does?
That is how you make non-choices.
Yes, thats what i meant, i couldnt remember if it applied but then afterwards i remembered it only refreshed. I would Def take a 5 target refresh over any 3 target bs.
There are plenty of “options” in the trees that are not really options. This is one of them. Even with carve having a better cdr for bombs doesnt mean its ever getting taken. Like i said, it woulf require consistent 5 target cleave for a long time for carve to overtake butchery. I just dont see it happening.
Now, if there was more synergy between carve and bombs in a way where damage is increased or whatever the case, the option between carve/butchery would be much more even.
It was uncapped, and remains so on live. We’ve had, effectively, a choice between a 3-target application, or uncapped refresh.
At present, it is not yet a non-option.
This would require only, say, a 1s CDR from the ST melee skills to the melee AoEs. As Carve has only two-thirds the CD of Butchery, that would naturally be more significant to Carve than to Butchery in sustained AoE, its niche, giving it a greater chance to lead in its designed niche.
That would require using ST attacks in aoe. No thanks, that is not only boring but feels bad and disappointing.
I’m hopeful that there’s a world where Latent Poison Injectors is viable on a cleave fight, in which case I would find using Raptor Strike in aoe would be not only interesting but feel great and exciting.
NTA IS GONNNNEEE
THANK THE LORDDDDDDDDD
Geez christ.
Testing on the PTR -
While selecting talents that are roughly on par with what is currently available on Live, I wanted to test the proc rate of Kill Shots while Deathblow is selected. The standard boss rotation was used (dungeon boss target dummy), Wild Spirits/True Shot macro’d, Double Tap, with 4-piece tier set.
It was noted that Kill Shot would light up indicating a proc of Deathblow, however, it would not be usable (dark icon with yellow border). This happened several times during a 2-minute rotation on a target dummy. The Focus bar was above 50% each time. It would seem that the Deathblow proc for Rapid Fire is potentially canceling/affecting the proc for Aimed Shot and vice-versa.
Would someone else be able to test the above scenario?
Ok time for feedback.
NTA is gone, thats a step in the right direction. Good on the dev for listening to people.
However, it lead to two unfortunate side affects.
Lets tackle number one.
First, NTA built up Steel Trap even though there wasnt any correlation between the two talents. What i mean is that when you went NTA you usually also went ST. Without NTA, ST sticks out like a sore thumb.
Second, where does ST fit now? Honestly, i dont really see a scenario where any spec WANTS to take ST.
Third, offensive traps are not fun to play. No one wants to ground target traps during a rotation. If it was a 3 min cd, id say MAYBE. Outside of that, and since blizz refuses to address ground targeted accessibility issues with target oriented spells, ST is DOA.
My suggestion: remove ST.
2nd suggestion: move it out of the way on a side somewhere where pvpers can get to it without it affecting pve builds.
NUMBER two
First, lets talk optics. When you remove a highly-unliked spell and instead of replacing it with something new you just move another spell over, thats not being fixing a problem, thats being lazy and cheap. The hunter community sees it as lazy and cheap.
Second, we just got blade figured out in its location and it gets moved. You just made MORE work for everybody.
Third, blade is out of place now. Before, it was around the spells it changed, now its in the middle of the dead zone, ahead of DOA ST.
Suggestion: RETURN BLADE TO WHERE IT WAS BEFORE.
Now. If blizz would do two things:
There is a LARGE DEAD SPOT between the already and still dead KC talent, and chakrums.
Now, this might seem a little forward, and a bit frank but PUT SOMETHING NEW THEREEEEE!!!
One of the largest complaints about the hunter trees is that its boring, along with “using base shots as capstones.”
Here is my suggestion:
BRING BACK WILD SPIRITS
But with modifications of course.
Add the covenant leggo as another talent (fills nta spot)
Address accessibility concerns by making it castable on target.
This suggestion not only provides hunters with a nice big exciting cd that we dont have but it also gives choice. Right now, there is no choice.
No one wants to ground target traps, but ground targeted Wild Spirits is okay? What’s the difference?
I disagree that Steel Trap is dead on arrival. It’s a massive bleed that only gets bigger with Serrated Shots. I do agree, however, that I would like to see something added where Nesingwary’s was instead of just moving Serrated over. It just should not be Wild Spirits. Not only do we not need another active “press on cooldown” button, but we especially do not need any more ground targeted cooldowns.
I would love to see something akin to Serrated Shots or Arctic Bolas added there. Additionally, I’d love if Steel Trap became a choice node that offered the choice to take some type of Bleed-based Shot instead – trading off the root effect for not having to place a ground targeted trap.
…We’ve literally always done this in SV.
Your AoEs are on CD. You have nearly full Focus. Do you…
In the above suggestion, at least your melee ST attacks would each be reducing the cooldown on Carve/Butchery, contributing something towards AoE, as opposed to just standing idle during AoE downtime because you musn’t demean yourself by using anything but AoE.
And is fine. Heck, it’s been one of the more enjoyable talents to take for leveling on the Beta. Especially on Lone Wolf MM. And it’s a chunky bleed at no Focus cost even in dungeons.
I disagree. They’re not fundamentally great, but neither are they fundamentally awful. They may occasionally get juked out by weird tank pathing, but…
??? Do you mean Serrated Shots?
Ingvaeonic,
As BM…
I really like where they put Serrated Blades, because Barbed Shot (a bleed) is something we strive to keep up 100%. Prior to move had to spend two points in Master Markman to reach it.
Or they can make it so we dont have to use ST attacks.
Quit white knighting
Yet, coming from someone who liked NTA, so its not surprising you would say this. Unless they fix the accessibility issues with traps, via castable on target, my point stands. NOTHING is worse then having nearly stop your rotation to cast a trap.
Ya, sry. On phn and couldnt look it up.