Community Council discussion on Hunter design

Classes Hunter
892

We all appreciate your work and communication. We’ve been very well treated throughout this development cycle, and the communication from Nimox does not seem to be slowing down — that is to say there’s plenty of time to get your feedback in and to still have it heard!

I know I’ve posted quite a bit and of course there have now been a few builds since some of my posts here, so I just want to summarize the issues that are still outstanding in my opinion in the class and spec tree for Survival.

I want to start by saying that honestly, I’m pretty happy with the apparent state of Survival in Dragonflight right now. I think Spearhead, Coordinated Assault, Fury of the Eagle and each of their improvement nodes are primed to make for some fun, engaging, and varied gameplay. With that said, here’s my list of issues and things I’d like to see added, removed, or changed:

Hunter Class Tree

Defensives

Honestly, not much to change here. The simple addition of Survival of the Fittest to the class tree and the choice improvement node beneath it, coupled with the re-addition of avoidance means that we’re in a pretty tanky spot! In a perfect world, I’d like to see Rejuvenating Winds do something like grant a shield for any overheal. I’d also like to see Binding Shackles removed and replaced with something else, it’s way too situational, and doesn’t really make sense even when the situation arises. The fact that it reduces damage done to us and not just by the target means that it has supremely limited functionality in PvE, and rank 1 players like Bicmex have literally scoffed at the idea of taking the talent in PvP. We have many defensive options to choose from—the Hunter’s Mark conduit, the Feign Death conduit, the damage reduction tied to Disengage—this one just doesn’t quite hit the mark.

Utility

I’m looking forward to using Sentinel Owl. I understand that may be an unpopular opinion, but it seems like a cool ability and granting Line of Sight hacks to your group seems like it will be very powerful and fun when it’s useful—but that may be very very few situations. Nimox acknowledged when he introduced Sentinel Owl that it may be incredibly niche. The defensive choice node with 10% Nature damage reduction is even more niche! It will be cool when it’s cool, but a complete waste when it’s not.

Hunters still need raid utility. My suggestion: give us a cooldown that gives our pet passive bonus to the raid for a short time. This means essentially Rallying Cry for Tenacity pets, Stampeding Roar for Cunning pets, and raidwide Leech for Ferocity pets. This adds redundancy for Rally, a powerful cooldown, but not Warrior’s only unique raid utility, since they still have Battle Shout. It also adds another redundancy for Stampeding Roar, again without impinging on Druid’s raid utility, since they’re getting Mark of the Wild back. The raidwide Leech would be unique, but by no means gamebreaking. It would see some powerful uses on bosses like Lords of Dread, but most of the time would probably lose out to Rally. To solve for Marksmanship’s issue of not summoning pets, you can give them each of the three abilities on a shared cooldown.

Hunter utility is honestly fine after this gap gets filled.

Throughput

I’m really happy with the additions of Arctic Bolas and Serrated Shots. My main problem with the bottom third of the class tree is that getting to Killer Instinct or Alpha Predator is way too expensive, and likely only worth it for Beast Mastery after the additions of Arctic Bolas and Serrated Shots. Either: one of Improved Kill Command or Beast Master should be removed or one or both should be reduced to one-point nodes.

Also, Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus has to go. Keep utility as utility, not damage. Simple as that.

Survival Spec Tree

Again, I’m very happy with how the tree is shaping up, just two main thoughts:

First, Viper’s Venom should only be one point or a leaf node. The second point is completely worthless in single target situations and in aoe, Volatile Bombs are likely keeping up enough Serpent Stings. 30% might not be completely worthless in aoe situations though, so if Viper’s Venom is not going to be removed, make it a leaf node and not the only gate to Wildfire Infusions.

Second, this middle third in general needs some point reductions. There are too many mandatory two-point talents. You’re always going to take Sweeping Spear (mostly because Sharp Edges is worthless) and Viper’s Venom (again to get to Wildfire Infusions), which brings your 12 points in the second gate down to 8. In aoe, you’re always taking Improved Wildfire Bomb (2); Carve/Butchery + Frenzy Stikes (2); Guerrilla Tactics and Flanking Strike (2), which leaves two points left, which would be a dps loss in almost every situation to not spend it in Tactical Advantage for 20% more Flanking Strike damage and 8% more Wildfire Bomb damage. It’s slightly less of a problem in single target, but essentially your only choice in single target is between 25% more Bomb damage or 6 extra energy per Kill Command. You never get the opportunity to flex a point or two into something like Lunge or going back and picking up Aspect of the Eagle/Terms of Engagement without passing on a pure, simple damage increase.

Remedies include: (1) reduce a few of these two-point nodes to one point (especially Viper’s Venom); (2) bake Lunge into Aspect of the Eagle as a passive; and/or (3) bake Sharp Edges (a total never-pick node) into one of the always-pick nodes and replace with an attractive one-point node.

And that’s really it! I’m seriously very happy with the state of Survival Hunter and look forward to a few more tweaks to continue iterating and improving!

4 Likes
893

Could you expand on that idea ?

894

Feedback from the most recent changes: why does explosives expert have to be 3 points? Its one of those times again where they are forcing point sinks.
Two: why did they lower the number of targets votaile bomb spreads SS? It doesnt make sense. If the bomb hits 5 targets why wouldnt it refresh 5 SS?

895

I am not even going to get into how entitled you are with your trees.

Go back to your coherent trees and quit complaining. Most of us have it worse.

896

Absolutely! The top and bottom line are obviously that we have to wait and see what the numbers actually look like. But I’m happy to discuss my thoughts on how this will hypothetically play out.

Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct are too costly for Survival to get to

In all situations, spending 5 points – nearly half of our bottom third budget – just does not seem to me like it will be worth it to get Killer Instinct or Alpha Predator. Marksmanship obviously does not care much about this branch. And I don’t think Beast Mastery really does either – I assume (without much experience in Beast Mastery) that they will take that branch 10 times out of 10 – though I think they could still benefit from a slight cost reduction.

AoE

In aoe situations, I think we want Serpent Sting and whichever of Latent Poison Injectors or Hydra’s Bite works better for the specific fight, and we almost certainly want Serrated Shots after that. We have exactly 5 points left over, and I just think that they’re going to be better spent picking up both of Arctic Bolas and Keen Eyesight, and either Death Chakram or Explosive Shot (likely Explosive Shot in aoe situations, and for its synergy with Ranger), than getting some more pet damage and a second charge of Kill Command. We will be able to get our Kill Command resets in during Pheromone Bombs, and we can supplement Focus generation with a heavily cd-reduced-Flanking Strike.

ST

In single target situations, there’s more flexibility to grab Alpha Predator, certainly. I think Death Chakram is crucial, but past that, we don’t necessarily need to build towards Serpent Sting due to Viper’s Venom generating basically 100% uptime, however, Serrated Shots and Master Marksman are still likely worth it. To get Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct as is, we would only be able to place one point into Serrated Shots. As I said above, it’s all going to come down to tuning. In single target situations, will 10% more Serpent Sting and bleed damage (20% more on targets under 30% health) plus Latent Poison Injectors/Hydra’s Bite and a point in Arctic Bolas outweigh 25% more Kill Command damage and 6% more pet damage, with the benefit of an extra charge? I have no idea, honestly, and I don’t have alpha to test the current tuning. But my guess right now is that with all the talents we have boosting Serpent Sting damage and the Kill Shot bleed from Coordinated Assault and the Mongoose Bite bleed from Spearhead and the Master Marksman bleed, that I think Serpent Sting and bleed damage will come out ahead.

So that’s how I’ve come to my conclusion, that is admittedly completely based on my hypothetical view of how things will play out in Dragonflight without the benefit of being able to test anything myself, that Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct are too costly to get to. I think that for Beast Mastery, which has historically had Kill Command and pet damage be a much, much higher portion of its damage profile than Survival, the path to Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct is worth it (but also probably mandatory). For Survival, however, I think it eats into the budget too much when there are more desirable looking option like Explosive Shot and Serpent Sting bonuses in aoe, and Death Chakram and again Serpent Sting/Bleed bonuses in single target.

I think the path to Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct would be greatly improved with even just a one point reduction; for instance, if the Beast Master node was reduced to one point and increased pet damage by 5%. For Survival Hunters in single target, it would allow more flexibility to access Serpent Sting shenanigans or both points of Serrated Shorts with Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct.

4 Likes
897

Wouldn’t that push SV towards more static cookie cutter build ?

898

If anything, I think if the Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct branch costs 4 points instead of 5, it opens up the bottom third to have more choices for Survival. My point is that it’s too costly to take as it is, and if it’s too costly to take, it forces our bottom third budget to all be spent in the middle or right side, which would lead to more static cookie cutter builds.

As I lay out above, I think in aoe, it’s probably not an option anyway, but in single target situations, I could see Kill Command/pet damage rivaling Serpent Sting/bleed damage to the point where Latent Poison Injectors, Hydra’s Bite, Alpha Predator, and Killer Instinct are all possible picks.

Edit: one additional thought – the only other capstone that costs 5 points to get to is Explosive Shot/Barrage, but getting to Arctic Bolas to unlock that node requires two points in either Keen Eyesight – unlocking Death Chakram/Stampede – or Master Marksman – unlocking Serrated Shots and Serpent Sting/Latent Poison Injectors/Hydra’s Bite. So while the Explosive Shot/Barrage node does cost 5 points to get to, that cost is essentially distributed over other capstone nodes as well. This is unlike the Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct node, which only leads into Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus – I have not encountered a single person who wants to take that.

So actually, I think it’s fine that Alpha Predator/Killer Instinct costs 5 points to get to only if Nesingwary’s is replaced by something worthwhile. If it isn’t, I think Beast Master or Improved Kill Command should be reduced by a point.

3 Likes
899

few words ring truer. Going predator at this time is nearly pointless for the aspects you stated. Too many points for too small of a payoff. Plus the placement corners you into traps, and no one even wants that on the tree. With the venom talent on the bomb side only affecting single target, its useless in aoe so going SS and shots is basically the cookie cutter build now.
This leaves 2/3rds of the bottom part of the tree basically dead.

Get rid of the traps, pull SS and that group towards the center, push chakrums right and pull predator a bit to the right and you open up the entire bottom part of the tree for all three specs. As long as the proper paths are put in place.

1 Like
900

Very useful in pvp. Possibly M+? Long st roots arent all that common.

1 Like
901

For sure PvP, but you don’t take it for the bleed. If you’re taking it in PvE I imagine it’s for a single GCD, no focus cost bleed. What I meant, though, is with the current class tree layout for DF, what possible build could use it? It’s confounding, especially under NTA.

902

Survival would never take it in its current position for mythic plus. Far too many other, better choices. Again, in its current position, you maybe pick it up in PvP as Survival — this is not just my opinion, this is shared by Bicmex in his latest video discussing talents.

With the addition of Arctic Bolas and Serrated Shots, I’m not sure BM or MM would ever bother to take Steel Trap in PvE.

2 Likes
903

It would make alot more sense. Or just baseline it for every spec. Or simply give surv the node.

Idk man. Its always been an utility tool for me.

904

Ok.

We’ll see. ST root is very good

905

Wait… Artic bola is 100% snare? Wtf lol… thats just silly if that is intended.

906

That’s a Wowhead tooltip error, I believe. I believe it’s actually 20%

907

The only time Steel Trap has seen PVE use was during S1 and S2 SL for the ST build. It wasn’t used for it damage or utility, it was used with neswingaries for focus building to get more MB in the damage window.
The need for ST root in PVE is extremely rare. In m+, ST roots mean very little because the GCD can be used with something much more valuable.
In PVP, it has a use of course, but the major question is does the points necessary to get Steel Trap worth it? More then likely bc your going to use freezing and tar traps much more often to get any use out of Neswingaries. But with the addition of the Artic Bola, the need to take all the clumbsy use of Steel trap and NSW gets thrown out the window.

Honestly, I think they should combine Steel Trap with NSW and add them to the PVP talents. Thats the one place its going to see use. It just doesnt make sense to me for it to have a capstone place. Considering the rest of the capstones are pretty subpar and dont have the significance or excitement as you would think a capstone should have, I would like to see it moved and open up the capstones. Reorganize them to there is more horizontal movement. Get all the shots that are sort of clumped together in the right corner more towards the center.
Also, you could move this to a capstone.
[Sniper Shot] (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=203155/sniper-shot) PvP Talent
Tank Specs – Row 1 PvP Talent
40 Focus 55 yd range
3 sec cast
Take a sniper’s stance, firing a well-aimed shot dealing 20% of the target’s maximum health in Physical damage and increases the range of all shots by 40% for 6 sec.

908

Make this work on bosses :joy: Who needs utility?

But yeah, what you said about using ST. It’s just in a weird spot, and doubly weird when one of the keystones enhances it, but you can’t logically get both and another actual damage ability. I’m just confused what Blizzard’s intention is here.

1 Like
909

Haha, i wish!

Just make it hit hard, remove the bonus range and add some synergy with aimed shot, barbed shot, and raptor strike and call it a day.
For instance

  1. Aimed shot increases the critical strike and critical strike damage of sniper shot.
  2. Sniper shot refreshes the duration of barbed shot on the target.
  3. Raptor strike decreases the cast time of sniper shot by 20%, stacks 5 times.

Boom, a legit capstone talent with synergy for all 3 specs. The only catch is as long as blizz makes it hit hard, its a viable capstone.

910

Actually this is partly correct. Its true use was to actually used to keep CA up for a much longer period of time. You could throw ST, then TAR, then Ice, and even EXP, rinse and repeat, and CA up for very very long time using your strikes, and having Neswingaries lego. I actually used that build, until of course the issue of some traps not working on bosses, or even triggering came about.

But as it stands now, ST is partly worthless, in PVE. It would still have a use in PvP but I agree, unless something is changed, NTA or ST itself, it will not be taken by the majority of the hunter community.

1 Like
911

Steel Trap does 200% AP armor-ignoring damage that leaves a potentially synergetic Bleed… for no Focus cost.

An unbuffed Aimed Shot, for comparison, takes up 1.67 globals, consumes 35 Focus, and, following the latest nerfs slated for it (not yet on WoWhead’s Talent Calculator), will barely hit mobs for more due to its not ignoring armor.

Steel Trap is pretty lame outside of where its utility can pay off, but it’s not ineffective in single-target. It’s really quite efficient. It’s just a matter of the other talents on its row generally being better; that competition, though, is much less straightforward in Dragonflight.

Unless they increase ST’s utility efficacy in M+, I’d be fine with this. That said…

…is also unlikely ever to be rotationally useful in PvE if intended to function anything like the original skill.

The % health will never happen in PvE, and it’s almost certainly going to be far less damage-efficient than your general, normal-range options, all for what?

A range advantage is very, very rarely useful if locked behind a 2-GCD (3s) cast. You’d have to need to go up to some 56 yards away over the next 6 seconds and be able to preempt that need with the skill (not great when your reason for going out that far is almost certainly going to be from dumping a random-target mechanic).

Meanwhile, if it needs considerable, explicitly designed synergy to function meaningfully… it probably shouldn’t be on the Class Tree.