⭐ Classic is Definitely not Vanilla

[Altrageous-wyrmrest-accord]

I have my doubts that even reverting the class changes back to 1.1 would have as big of an impact that some people think it would

Rolling back to 1.10 would arguably do the game good.

It is what it is though. At this point our options are accept 1.12 or don’t play.

Yeah, but we can still theorycraft as to what “improvements” changes inadvertently nerfed content. It is not as if blizzard actually cares about player input.

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

Again, you’re missing my point. We have 15 years of knowledge of how MMOs work that we didn’t in 2004/2005. Reverting the dungeons back to their pre-1.12 states still won’t give the sense of difficulty and discovery you’re looking for. You’re not running the dungeons with warrior tanks in cloth agi gear and stuff like that. They were difficult because the entire playerbase was trying to feel out how to play the game at the same time. Now those people are going to be the exception rather than the rule.

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

Space Station 13… I both recommend it and don’t at the same time due to a few things.

If you’re a sensitive person I do not recommend that game.

If you’re a trouble maker or really get into RP then it’s a great game.

If you’re game play involves creating new ways to really screw things up… This is the game for you.

IMO most game depth of any video game ever made (this far)…

[Altrageous-wyrmrest-accord]

I’m more concerned about Strat/Scholo tbh than MC. If those are the AoE zergfests that modern dungeons are, I’ll be sad.

I think Strath/Scholo will not be faceroll, but not nearly a shadow of how they were pre-nerf.

Part of me really does hope that they are reverting endgame content of their ilk to prior non-nerfed versions, and is part of the reason they are only doing internal beta of 40-60. What an awesome surprise if they actually had that content, the content that will be played the most, as it’s authentic original difficulty.

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

Again, you’re missing my point. We have 15 years of knowledge of how MMOs work that we didn’t in 2004/2005. Reverting the dungeons back to their pre-1.12 states still won’t give the sense of difficulty and discovery you’re looking for. You’re not running the dungeons with warrior tanks in cloth agi gear and stuff like that. They were difficult because the entire playerbase was trying to feel out how to play the game at the same time. Now those people are going to be the exception rather than the rule.

Wtf?

They would be more difficult… period. I don’t care about your vision of what you think is difficult or not… I want them in the state I played them in, and more difficult is better than less difficult.

I don’t find this game to be mindnumbingly easy… otherwise I wouldn’t play it.

I don’t know why you think I care whether it would be the same exact difficulty as it was 15 years ago, that is completely irrelevant… I simply want it as close as it was and as it could be… instead of less.

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

I imagine you want progressive talent trees and class abilities as well?

[Altrageous-wyrmrest-accord]

I mean, the context of the original post from 1.5 months ago was changing the game to artificially increase the difficulty of it. Which entirely misses the point of why it was difficult in the first place: we didn’t know anything about the game.

Spoken like someone who did not play throughout vanilla. There were actual changes that nerfed content while characters were buffed. To suggest that we are simply better and more knowledgeable is quite a display of ignorance.

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

I imagine you want progressive talent trees as well?

Ideally I would… but that would be too messy. So I don’t advocate for that.

I simply want all dungeon and raids to be their original difficulty that is was in vanilla… and it’s absolutely SILLY to think there is no value in that lol.

Your counter-argument is nihilistic… I don’t find this game trivial, otherwise I wouldn’t play it…

And I don’t know why you would play it if you thought it was trivial?

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

@Altrageous-wyrmrest-accord

Spoken like someone who did not play throughout vanilla. There were actual changes that nerfed content while characters were buffed. To suggest that we are simply better and more knowledgeable is quite a display of ignorance.

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

Ideally I would… but that would be too messy. So I don’t advocate for that.

The problem is they are deadset on using 1.12 as a reference. That means talents, spells, and dungeons are in their 1.12 states. I don’t like it either, but that’s what we’re getting.

The OP is specifically talking about “player experience”.

Now - If the true purpose of creating WoW Classic is to recreate the authentic vanilla experience - then why not focus on just that, where it is possible?

Player experience in this context is not always the same as static data.

The experience back in the day was for example that dungeons were rather unforgiving. This was actually one of many important components that made the original masterpiece.

In my opinion - If we want longevity (as much as can be, WoW being an old game) in WoW Vanilla, if we want a standing chance of recreating the experience, then perhaps we should stop debating data and start discussing the experience instead!

He explicitly states the problem is not the data, it’s the player experience. Which is what I’m talking about. You’re not going to be able to recreate the player experience from vanilla, whether you unnerf the dungeons or not. Because the difficulty wasn’t in the data, the difficulty was how new the game was.

I’m not being nihilistic. I’m being realistic. I’m not going into Classic expecting to relive my college years. I’m not going into Classic expecting it to take hours to clear dungeons, regardless of nerfed or unnerfed states. If they did revert dungeons to pre-1.12 states, I fully expect the difference in clear times to be negligible.

And I don’t know why you would play it if you thought it was trivial?

Because the difficulty is not why I play.

[Earnil-hyjal]

My guild from vanilla still exists and our old website is still there. I found a post I made from around 1.12 advising people not to bring a main tank to Strat if they were trying to do 45 min baron

That being said, the vast majority of players could not do 45 min baron in pre-raid blues, even post 1.12, so we’ll know something’s up if they suddenly can.

No more than you do I believe the difference is we’re now just all so much more skilled from all the zergs of Waycrest Manor. People were new in 2004, but by 2006 they had been playing for quite a while.

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

Ideally I would… but that would be too messy. So I don’t advocate for that.

The problem is they are deadset on using 1.12 as a reference. That means talents, spells, and dungeons are in their 1.12 states. I don’t like it either, but that’s what we’re getting.

The OP is specifically talking about “player experience”.

Now - If the true purpose of creating WoW Classic is to recreate the authentic vanilla experience - then why not focus on just that, where it is possible?

Player experience in this context is not always the same as static data.

The experience back in the day was for example that dungeons were rather unforgiving. This was actually one of many important components that made the original masterpiece.

In my opinion - If we want longevity (as much as can be, WoW being an old game) in WoW Vanilla, if we want a standing chance of recreating the experience, then perhaps we should stop debating data and start discussing the experience instead!

He explicitly states the problem is not the data, it’s the player experience. Which is what I’m talking about. You’re not going to be able to recreate the player experience from vanilla, whether you unnerf the dungeons or not. Because the difficulty wasn’t in the data, the difficulty was how new the game was.

I’m not being nihilistic. I’m being realistic. I’m not going into Classic expecting to relive my college years. I’m not going into Classic expecting it to take hours to clear dungeons, regardless of nerfed or unnerfed states. If they did revert dungeons to pre-1.12 states, I fully expect the difference in clear times to be negligible.

And I don’t know why you would play it if you thought it was trivial?

Because the difficulty is not why I play.

Yeah, I’m not backing down from saying what I would prefer to be classic. If there were enough people who asked for initial dungeon/raid difficulty, they would do it.

Ion himself said he was debating on whether putting in unnerfed [C’Thun] for the first week.

If you listen to blizzards narrative this whole time… the wording they use is the “vanilla experience” being the most important part.

We are not getting patch 1.12… We don’t have access to nax day 1… We are getting a state of wow that has never existed.
They are using 1.12 as a base… and we could easily advocate to things that would make the experience better.

I personally do find vanilla wow difficult… with and without nerfs… It’s not trivial for me lol… I die… I wipe… that happens lol. I prefer the original difficulty regardless.

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

I found a post I made from around 1.12 advising people not to bring a main tank to Strat if they were trying to do 45 min baron

Maybe it was because by the time T0.5 came out we were decked in BWL gear, but I don’t remember timed Strat runs being that hard.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

We are not getting patch 1.12… We don’t have access to nax day 1… We are getting a state of wow that has never existed.
They are using 1.12 as a base… and we could easily advocate to things that would make the experience better.

They’re using 1.12 systems from the start. That’s the key difference. No Progressive Itemization, but Progressive Item Release. No constant nerfing and unnerfing of classes.

Remember that the overall goal here is to deliver the ability to “dust off the cartridge” any time you want down the track. They’re not trying to remaster or remake it. It makes sense to give everyone the final version before 2.0.1 as best they can.

Personally I’d be happy seeing “weekends” of different aspects like unkillable C’thun (though probably killable with 1.12 talents/builds) and AV 1.5. But the baseline is still that after CP6, we will have 1.12.

[Fearoftdark-akama]

making ZF mobs elite again.

Make WoW great again

[Earnil-hyjal]

Maybe it was because by the time T0.5 came out we were decked in BWL gear,

Why yes, I think that might have something to do with it. Nothing like running a quest when you’re two tiers above the people it is designed for.

[Earnil-hyjal]

Personally I’d be happy seeing “weekends” of different aspects like unkillable C’thun

Sure, if Goldshire marbles and snowballs work on him that weekend

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

if Goldshire marbles and snowballs

I don’t know what you mean but sure.

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

Funny how people’s memories are colored like that, eh?

[Altrageous-wyrmrest-accord]