⭐ Classic is Definitely not Vanilla

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
469

I don’t think they should put in post-Vanilla balance changes just because we know something now that we didn’t back then which enables a strategy we previously thought impossible.

We all knew going into this things that we weren’t going to be getting our exact personal experiences back. Inauthentic changes to try to recapture the original difficulty some of us experienced isn’t going to bring that back.

It’s not that the changes from 1.1 to 1.12 would have zero effect, just that it wouldn’t have as big an effect as some people around here think it would.

Most of the talent revamps simply brought up vastly underperforming specs that you simply just wouldn’t use if we were getting 1.1.

470

I agree mostly with what you are saying.

My initial post does not contradict what you are saying though, did you read it sir? :slight_smile:

471

It contradicts the parts where you talk about dungeons should be unforgiving and how “the only reason to not want this is to cater to the easy mode masses”.

I’m saying that even with your nerfs reverted, you wont get the unforgiving hard mode dungeons that you talk about. Your solution doesn’t achieve what you say you want, because the reality is that WoW was always an easy game.

I originally argued in favour of a full 1.1->1.12 patch progression for the sake of authenticity, but it is what it is now. We’re getting 1.12.

The changes you propose don’t really do anything for authenticity since it’s frankenpach, and they’re more trouble than they’re worth for the minimal effect it would have on difficulty.

2 Likes
472

A valid post, thanks for your input.

Im still not convinced though.

I still believe that by reverting nerfs that fit from earlier patches it will guide the game in the right way.

Will it offer the same experience as back in 2004? No, ofcourse not.

But if you compare the game with reverted nerfs to the game in its full 1.12 patch glory. The earlier game will offer the better experience. simple logic.

Call it frankenpatch or call it patch 1.13, doesnt really matter the logic still stands :slight_smile:

473

If it’s not going to bring back the unforgiving dungeons, how will it “guide the game in the right direction”? Your OP kind of relies on the idea that reverting these nerfs will make dungeons a lot harder.

but it’s not like classes are going to be affected. We’re still going to have high octane DPS burning everything down before it becomes a threat.

Most of what reverting the nerfs would do is make dungeons take a little longer, not make them more challenging.

474

I agree, it’s not a perfect solution - far from it tbh.

But every little bit helps… the alternative is worse.

475

So you keep saying, but you don’t say how making a change that wont achieve what you say is so important will actually help.

Like I said, it wont make the dungeons more challenging which is the entire goal of what you want here. It’ll make them a bit longer to clear, but you don’t say how that “guides the game in the right direction” because your original argument is so dependent on the idea of dungeons that aren’t easy mode.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s a lot more trouble than it’s worth for what we get out of it.

2 Likes
476

Blockquote
Sabetha
So you keep saying…

Thanks for your reply.

I didn’t take the time to fully answer your post earlier, mostly due to the fact that (in my opinion) all the answers to your statements/questions can be found in the initial post to the thread.

But isn’t this what forums are for… here goes :slight_smile:

If you read the initial post you would have noticed that dungeons is just one example of an area in the game that Blizzard can look over. I also mention raids, Bg’s (AV) etc. I merely chose dungeons as a concrete primary example to get my point across.

Vanillas original game design approach (obviously since used in the past) affects all aspects of the game. And in my suggestion where there is a reference to an earlier patch, we should go back and look to revert nerfs that fit into the current 1.12 patch. Not only for dungeons, but for the game as a whole - once again.

For me it’s rather self explanatory on how these reverted nerfs will guide the game towards a better player experience. There are many different components that contribute to a gaming experience, challenge/difficulty/effort/complexity (subjective, as most other things) being a few of them.

A challenge creates a sense of meaning and when overcome, a sense of accomplishment - nothing new under the sun…

If we take dungeons as an example (once again). If your group were to enter a dungeon and steamroll it without any consideration to tactics and whatnot. That will most likely not result in a satisfying gaming experience. The satisfaction of completing that dungeon will most likely be on the short side in comparison to the alternative.

By tactics i mean;

  • Complete disregard to gear (i.e tanking with a two hander without consequence)
  • No need to CC
  • No need to manage threat
    The list goes on…

There will be groups of players (gear/group setups/individual player skill), regardless of what we can do within the actual current patch history, that will be able to (even with reverted nerfs on patch 1.12) more or less mindlessly plow through the dungeon, but that is not the point at hand.

Macro, my initial post refers to increasing the challenge/difficulty/effort/complexity (dynamic variables) of the game.

Micro, make the Zul’Farrak Dead Heroes in ZF elites again (they are non elites in 1.12). That will most likely not take long, it will most likely not demand a huge amount of resources on Blizzards behalf. Is there really a true downside to this?

Will in fact changes (as described above) secure the experience (that I’m referring to in my initial post) for all players at all times? Well the answer is, regardless of context, no. But we have improved the prerequisites for the game to succeed. Every little step counts, regardless of how small, it will still take us closer to the initial game design philosophy of Blizzard back in 2005 (links to this in my initial post above), and it’s that philosophy that made the game we all came to love. Nothing else.

The more nerfs that we can revert - that fit, nerfs that is is fair and reasonable in terms of time invested/output and compatibility with patch 1.12 will again create better prerequisites for a quality WoW vanilla gaming experience.

Now why is that again?

WoW Vanilla’s success was mostly due to it’s game design in terms of creating a social experience.

How social is retail today? Been speaking to many of your fellow players during your last daily HC’s, daily group quests or even M+? Created any meaningful friendships lately? Gee… I wonder why…

By reverting nerfs that creates incentive for us players to;

  • Coordinate
  • Communicate
  • Cooperate…

Will help us create a better game.

The philosophy of Instant gratification, nerfed content, everything to everyone at any time (more or less) without any real demand when it comes to effort. This is what made retail what it is today.

Time spent versus reward with a strong underlying incentives (more or less demanding) for players working together is key.

So again, all reverted nerfs that helps us in achieving a more meaningful social experience will help the game succed - simple as that. This is a fact, not my opinion.

The more challenging, the more unforgiving we can make WoW Classic (input only from earlier patches), the better for everyone - in the long run.

Many of the nerfs will (when looked at as an isolated change) of course be within the margin of “it will not matter/it might matter, so why do it”.

As a principle though, even if only one nerf were to be reverted, i.e the Zul’Farrak Dead Heroes in ZF retuned to Elites, will still be better then not doing anything at all. It will still, regardless of how small, be a step in the right direction. So why should we (with that as an argument) say, “let’s do nothing” instead?

And once again, I don’t think either of us should value the effort needed implement any of this principles to WoW Classic, leave that to Blizzard.

The point of the thread is to disucss the “what”, not the “how” - again leave that to the professionals.

3 Likes
477

TL;DR Nerf Battleshout

I think that’s just too much either/or when there’s degrees. Scale of 0/10, how inauthentic is it to get rid of something that most people never used or knew about. I say 1.

I know it’ll never again be like levelling that first character. But I had a lot of fun levelling my second or third alt, when thottbot and questing guides, etc etc were readily available, and I already knew (more or less) how to play.

My first alt was a healer, and I did spend a lot of time telling groups they could be more aggressive, so I know it wasn’t actually as hard as people thought :slight_smile: But I’m just thinking of things like a trash pull with 4 mobs, tank holds two with tab sunder, you focus down one of them and CC the other two. If CC breaks early or you get an add then of course it would come straight for me. I would have to scramble around like a QB chased out of the pocket. Rogue if on the ball tries to stun, mage novas, etc etc. Does any of that matter at all if the tank can hold infinite mobs forever by hitting one button?

I don’t care if moonlighting Method players can find a way to AOE down Scarlet Monastery at level 25 in white gear. I just don’t want that to be the normal experience. If something as easy as Battle Shout spam enables that…

A major unknown for me is how many actual newbs will play Classic. Maybe none. If that is the case, then it will indeed be a totally different experience.

The class refits did more than dink around with spec balance. Things that had been deep in one tree suddenly became trainable abilities everybody got, like Innervate for Druids and Evocate for Mages. Their place in the tree was taken by some other powerful ability (Swiftmend for Druids), so in effect resto druids got a free 31-point talent level ability. Priest heals got a 10% buff to HPM. Etc, etc, etc.

Kinda stream of consciousness, sorry. Dunno what all these brain cells filled with random info about vanilla have been doing the last 12 1/2 years.

3 Likes
478

I think you’re missing my point here.

I get the whole bit about difficult content. What I reject is the notion that, especially since we’ll be using 1.12 classes, that reverting these nerfs will have any meaningful change to the difficulty of Classic WoW content.

Do you really think that taking a few extra seconds to kill ZF dead heroes is going to result in a need for greater co-ordination and communication? Do you think that it’s going to cause threat to be in need of management when threat is a product of how much Warriors can do?

This is where your argument breaks down for me: I get that difficult content is good for the game, but I don’t agree that what you propose would result in difficult content. I don’t think it would have even any sort of meaningful effect even in the context of “any bit helps”.

Which thus far you haven’t provided any real counter-points to that. You’ve just been re-iterating your stance about difficult content.

WoW was built on being a forgiving game from 1.1. which means that it is not a difficult game by any means and the biggest nerfs to content throughout Vanilla has been the class talent revamps with itemization(another thing that’s static 1.12) being the second biggest thing.

We go on about how Molten Core is trivialized in 1.12 but what nerfs did Molten Core actually directly get? There really isn’t any in the patch notes.

So how is reverting nerfs of the content itself going to make Molten Core any less trivial? How is it going to make Molten Core require CC, co-ordination, threat management, etc. in higher amounts than we’d otherwise get with static 1.12?

What allows us to blow through content is A. The average player understands how to hold threat on Warriors(or even Druids/Paladins) a lot better now and B. We’ve perfected getting the most DPS out of DPS classes.

That wont change without changing the classes.

2 Likes
479

Odd that a number of players were warning about that, but blizzard thinks 1.12 is A O K.

2 Likes
480

I have my doubts that even reverting the class changes back to 1.1 would have as big of an impact that some people think it would, but I did originally argue for a full blown 1.1->1.12 patch progression for the sake of authenticity.

It is what it is though. At this point our options are accept 1.12 or don’t play.

1 Like
481

Mariocart?

1 Like
482

I agree on Molten Core. I think it was much less that it was directly nerfed than that better pre-raid gear was added (Thorium Bros, DM, ZG, eventually AQ20). Also that players were buffed.

MC will be slaughtered by top end guilds and would be even if it was patch 1.1 (so long as they didn’t use the patch where Rags was bugged, lol). But I think any genius who goes in there thinking it is the equivalent of an LFR raid because bosses have few mechanics is in for a lava nap.

I’m more concerned about Strat/Scholo tbh than MC. If those are the AoE zergfests that modern dungeons are, I’ll be sad.

2 Likes
483

This is one of the most… short sighted excuses I hear.

Why do you think that simply not being able to recreate something perfectly to your original experience is an excuse to not try to make it as close as possible to that experience?

This is completely perplexing to me…

4 Likes
484

Because you’re never going to get that initial experience back. Set your expectations to something more realistic and you might enjoy yourself.

3 Likes
485

But he’s a bliz shill/BfA fanboy, his comments are meaningless.

1 Like
486

What?

I am not under such delusion… but I do want them to try their best to make it as close as possible O_o

And having various ideas on how to bring it closer… aren’t bad, in fact, they are in the spirit of classic

That is the whole point of bringing back classic lol.

Still baffles me.

4 Likes
487

I mean, the context of the original post from 1.5 months ago was changing the game to artificially increase the difficulty of it. Which entirely misses the point of why it was difficult in the first place: we didn’t know anything about the game. Artificially making it “harder” won’t bring that sense of difficulty back.

488

No… They wanted to revert the dungeon difficulty back to their original values… which was classic.

because they were nerfed and changed over the course of the game. SInce a lot of us experienced those dungeons in vanilla in their origonal unnerfed form… it’s actually like the new values seem very unnatural, and un-classic.

If you simply want the game in it’s 1.12 state(Which you won’t be playing it in that form because they are not doing that)… that can certainly be your position… but it is my opinion, that was not the vanilla experience… and anything they can do to make it more like the vanilla experience would be great.

4 Likes