Classic Era 1.14.4 PvP Update

Here’s my theory on why blizz are making changes to classic era right now.

The devs know they messed up wotlk with their changes ie. tokens, updated pve gear messing up arenas, etc. So instead of taking the time to fix that, they’ll justify to us and their blizz upper management that the reason why wotlk isnt being worked on is becuz their too busy “improving” classic era.

Imagine when u go into a meeting and all u come up with is “uhhh wotlk is messed up and we dont know how to fix it” vs “ugg we messed up wotlk, but thats becuz we’re too busy changing classic era! thats our excuse!”

1 Like

Or they’re massaging us for the Classic Era WoW token.

3 Likes

Ask your guild leader.

False. There are two PvP East clusters as well:

Though, you are not the first player on the PvP West cluster to be unaware of us. They do a great job downplaying the PvP East while simultaneously exploiting free transfers to mule resources.

You are latching onto a throwaway line from a PR interview and treating it as if it were a statement of purpose. #NoChanges was dead and buried before the 2019 release. Classic Era is not #NoChanges. It is its own game. Linked is the article Blizzard put out for Classic Era’s debut:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/world-of-warcraft-classic-and-burning-crusade-classic-characters-and-realms/

" WoW Classic will direct you to the new Classic Era realms which will have the latest phase of WoW Classic content in it and will not progress into any WoW expansion content."

The ‘lastest phase of WoW Classic’ is not beholden to #NoChanges and is free to be further developed in any number of ways so long as they do not progress into retail’s expansions.

With the way I’ve seen things go down wheenver blizz changes something, i think there’s good enuff reasonn for their to be #NoMOREchanges

Esp since the reason why classic era is popping rn is becuz of the wotlk transplants after blizz fumbled on that

1 Like

It was my understanding that the other two clusters were dead. Is that not the case? Either way that doesn’t change my point. Silithus sand running is a mechanism for pay to win and has already been being used in such a way. This is an objective truth.

Not at all. It is what the devs stuck with and were for the most part pretty consistent with throughout all of Vanilla Classic’s history thus far. There’s a few exceptions here and there but even many of those changes were intended to mold the meta into a more vanilla like form. The change to black lotus spawns, for example, was made to compensate for the increased population sizes to create a more vanilla like black lotus quantity to player ratio.

Well that technically is is true. Blizzard can do whatever the heck they want with it. They own it. But they’re contradicting themselves and their past stance on the PvP system with this change.

I refer you to my original comment:

Your cluster being consumed by a toxic Pw2 culture doesn’t validate removing genuine features from Classic Era. The wPvP objectives are fine as they are.

combined with

is called ‘moving the goalpoast’. #NoChanges was never on the table. Claiming otherwise is denying reality. Hence,

is a completely baseless claim.

I don’t “need” anything. I just liked the experience it created. I also liked the complexity and I liked educating people about how it worked and helping them achieve their goals.

Same, or I won’t play frankly. I’ve still got PVP friends that I plan to play with again on the next season or fresh. It’s the summer now though and I’m not gaming past two hours a week, and to me, this absolutely isn’t enticing enough for me to come back to Era. If people think this is great and it motivates them to play more, fine.

I’ve been open-minded to others here, but very few are to me. I’ve mostly just been on the defensive because people keep saying that my perspective is wrong because they don’t want to understand it, and most like this change so there is NO desire to understand those who are different. Or simply those who want classic Era to stay the same and not change.

Agreed, I made a point to mention that in this thread. So I agree that the best place to grind honor is still premades and I’ll agree that you won’t get invited if you’re a jerk. I saw what happened in the tbc prepatch though and did not like it, from the afk premades to the terrible attitudes by maybe 85% of the players. Did you play that?

Alright, thanks for explaining. I’ll understand your perspective even though your main goal simply seems to be to discount mine and attack it.

I have a son but he was/is of the age that he doesn’t want to be with his parents anymore all that much. When he was younger I hardly played video games at all. People do things all the time as a time-consuming hobbies. When I was younger my mother was out almost 3-5 times a week with the groups that she socialized with, bowling and choir, and whatever else, few have a problem with things like that. Whereas I was present in the home and there were MANY times to interact with the family between queues, and I did. Judge all you want. I am glad I have a partner that allows me to go for my goals and that’s all that matters. Many do not. 6 hours a week raiding at home has been too much for some of the partners of those in my guilds, so they’ve had to quit because their partners don’t want them to enjoy themselves as individuals.

Thanks, I am glad that I was able to make memories doing something I enjoy. It’s always nice to see others showing open-mindedness when you share thoughts with them, well it would be if you weren’t being totally sarcastic.

I absolutely do not think Era needed to change and I absolutely do not understand why Era was changed. I DO think that this would have been fine in seasons and I would have/will play it with that change.

Chronoboon was one of the only good things they did and people always bring it up because there’s not a lot else to bring up. Chronoboon was also changed pre-Era, not for Era.

I just disagree and am not going to change my mind but Blizzard agrees with you so that’s great for you.

There were just too many changes to tbc/Wrath that I didn’t like for me to just outright think that changes to Era are good. I’m actually trying to mostly accept this one, and hope that it doesn’t change the “spirit of the game” too much. That’s while simply saying that this is unfortunate for the few who want things as they were, and while saying I’m glad I had the experience I did.

Perhaps because understanding others perspectives is too hard, you chose to attack. I’m not sure what I did to deserve you going at me from every angle. Is it simply because I don’t like Era changing even though Blizzard cares 0% about any of my perspectives?

They’re tearing down the old house and building a new one and calling it the same, and you like the new house. Great. I like the old one. Hopefully, people don’t find they miss the old little quirks the old one had, even though the new 2023 one looks great.

1 Like

Again, I didn’t say they should change them. I said if they’re going to make changes Silithus sand running is where they should start. I also didn’t say they should remove the silithus sand objective. I said they should remove the honor reward or greatly reduce it. If you’re going to say the PvP honor system is flawed and then leave out Silithus sand running I think you’re just being silly. Not sure you understand how quickly you can get honor this way. It’s 199 honor per turn in. You can have 10+ people bringing you sand. Not sure the honor per hour, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 100k honor or more per hour. If I’m not mistaken they changed the EPL towers, by the way. You used to be able to abuse those for honor as well.

Incorrect. They are contradicting themselves. People have asked for changes to the honor system for a long time. Every time the answer has been something along the lines of “We want it to remain as it was in vanilla.” Now they’re doing something other than what they said in the past. This is what we call a contradiction.

Anyways, it doesn’t really matter. We could argue and this would go nowhere. The point is Classic Era should should remain as it is. There is no need to change it. If they want to change it they have seasonal servers or they could make other servers with different rules like they are with hardcore. Leave the traditional Classic Era servers alone.

2 Likes

It’s REALLY nice to see another poster say this. Thank you.

1 Like

So many times Blizzard has focused on their pet projects instead of what needs to be fixed (bugs, botting, etc). That’s one of my primary gripes about them overall. This is a pet project, it’s just being more well-received than some of the others, by people who are fine with changes to a game from 2004 because they actually want a 2023 game.

1 Like

You are the one contradicting yourself.

No. Classic Era is not a #NoChanges safety bunker and never was a #NoChanges safety bunker.

Plz keep the UI in classic as is. This weird interface in PTR (from wotlk) is weird and unintuitive and breaks my addons lol

Yes, and? That’s the game. This is what is expected and what was in place during Vanilla and Classic. I don’t see much evidence of people turning away from the game because of it. In fact, the servers were nearly dead when TBC launched with the clone fee, but now there are many populated realms, and not because of changes being made.

Address pool boosting directly then, don’t change the whole system.

Yes, social engagement between PvPers. I don’t see the issue. There’s no guarantees even with a verbal agreement.

Ok, update this / address it directly, don’t change the whole system.

I’m not really sure what the real motivation is here, because this is kind of out of left field… it seems like change for the sake of change.

If you do decide to move forward with this, which I don’t support, 12 weeks absolute bare minimum from 0 to 14, as that is what the original ranking was, at a minimum. In reality, with the lack of any real decay risk, it should be double or triple that, perhaps even more with very high honor targets.

The competition component, with players keeping each other in check is important.

Overall, this is a mistake. Please stop with the changes. Again, people are coming back and not because you guys are making changes. Thanks.

2 Likes

Your answer is written in the Blizzard post. Go read it above.

The funny thing too is blizz tried to get rid of pool boosting around 2021. Blizz actually had to revert this change after the community feedback was so largely negative. (This is the one of the only example i can think of where blizz actually listen to feedback to revert a change)

Pool boosting the rising tide that lifted every1 up

2 Likes

Are they going to implement a one time boost as in tbc or at least a bonus xp buff?, this change makes me want to play but not if i have to level from scratch since they did not kept the clones for classic era.

Yep, I remember that. I wasn’t even ranking but I felt for those who were so I posted in the threads saying that the change would be really bad for people (of course there were others attacking the rankers too with their stereotypical judgment, as always). It was one of the very few times that something got rolled back, and I did respect the devs for actually listening. They did make the change for SoM though, it was related to deleted characters counting for the pool.

1 Like

So going over feedback on the official forums, reddit, some light in game prodding, and checking with my guild, there appears to be two schools of thought on this. Outside looking in stating it is a good change and inside looking out stating is a bad change. Specifically, most of the positive feedback are from players who appreciate the change and are looking forward to trying ranking. However, the negative feedback is from players who have done or attempted the ranking itself. I myself have not tried ranking myself and was also intrigued by the points made on the post initially. However, after reading the comments, I would like to clearly lay out the points made by the dissenting as I believe they are in the right.

1. There’s a lot of pressure to grind HKs nonstop
The very nature of Ranking in the old system is what makes it so venerated. It is such an alternative style of play compared to something like PvE where players are restricted on a weekly or hourly basis. It satisfies a particular niche of players who have the time to put in and can draw in others who would normally think they do not have the time to play. Removing this aspect fundamentally changes not only how ranking is done, but how it is perceived and thus diminishes the efforts of those who have ranked in the initial classic release and in Era. As taxing as the time commitment is, the very real effort needed to take time away to rank is something that can only really be experienced in either PvP ranking or the scarab lord grind. Furthermore, playing the same PvP with the same players day in and day out does create social bonds that are uniquely forged in the r14 grind. I understand in the recent past with Vanilla’s re-release there were “mafias”, but in Era, with a smaller population and more connected community via discord & server connections, it is very much a close community effort.

2. Since players are ranked based on a percentage of how many PvP participants there are, some players will engage in an activity called “pool boosting”
The core problem identified in the pool boosting issue is the concern of players botting to automate the process. However, the issue solely lies with botting software and bad actors, which is what should be acted upon. The fundamental design of having a pool based ranking system means that the MMO aspect of the game would need to be satisfied in order for players to rank. I am aware that that many rankers have made alts just for PvP and promptly deleted them, but they did this manually and was a communally agreed upon necessity for the ranking process in Era when the population was sparce. In fact, “pool parties” were common even in the Classic re-release wherein Horde and Alliance rankers would take time to make alts and fight each other for a few hours each week. Now that more players have returned to Era and are engaging in PvP at all levels, I expect the need for bots will diminish. Furthermore, I would advise not seeking an alternative solution like “deleted PvP participants no longer count towards the pool” as that received a large volume of backlash as it did with Kaivax’s October 2020 post. ref: PvP Rank Pools Hotfix Coming October 13

3. Bracket fixing becomes the meta
What is described as bracket fixing is a natural progression of the system wherein a player may need to leave their current guild and current in-game friend group in order to pursue a PvP ranking guild and new friend group. It was very much the spirit of the old system as it was present and tolerated in Vanilla WoW and in the Classic re-release so there should be no surprise it is present in Era as well. The teamwork needed to get players ranked and stick around to help others reach rank as well as the notoriety earned by the infamous bracket breakers becomes its own social microcosm that only a game as complex as Vanilla WoW is known for. However, I understand the argument that “it has always been this way” is not sufficient as to why change should be avoided. So, I cannot speak from personal experience, but from what I heard from previous rank 14 players is that the whole process of ranking and setting up an order with other rankers was that was the time where they made some of the closest friends they ever had. I believe that point and the incredibly unique way to pursue real bonds is a sufficient enough reason to keep this old system as it is.

4. The old PvP Honor system script is complex, takes a long time to run, and is error prone
Oddly enough, I have not come across any complaints at all in this matter. In fact, I distinctly recall a consistent stream of bug reports and complaints in Era about honor not updating as it should due to the inherent delays of the old system. I suppose this is the one change no one has anything bad to say and would be acceptable as many current Era players believe the delayed honor reports are caused by a bug.

5. Eliminate ranking points
I believe my previous points provide some reference to this matter, but I will use this opportunity to clearly restate my key point against this. The way players pursue ranking in Era WoW is a completely unique system that is not present nor possible in any other iteration of WoW, aside from the Seasonal Scarab Lord bug grind. What is perceived as the faults and time sinks of the system instead encourages alternative styles of play and a necessity to work in tandem with other players in a concentrated period of time. This uniqueness of the system is also what makes the position of rank 14 so venerated. Furthermore, without ranking points, players are able to pursue ranking as a completely solo activity without needing to cooperate with other players via sand (explained in point 9). Ultimately ranking as of now is just another pathway in which players can bond with others and make friends and foes alike.

6. Grant Honor and Honor Points at the time the HK (or DK!) is earned
Like in point 4, I have not seen any complaints at all in this matter and I suppose it can only benefit rankers as they can figure out when they can stop for the day rather than trying to track honor manually during pool parties.

7. Move the weekly honor updates to a more efficient and performant method of updating individual player ranks
As referenced above, removing the RP system would be a detriment to the WoW Era PvP system and fundamentally change how it is pursued. So, this point is moot.

8. Remove de-ranking
This is a bit of a tricky one. De-ranking part of what makes the PvP ranking system as it is by fundamentally encouraging players to perform ranking in a concentrated period of time. It is more or less a necessary byproduct of the PvP system to encourage a social effort. Furthermore, it creates a natural “passing of the torch” to your fellows when ranking. Also, it is unnecessary as players have very tangible proof of their ranking efforts by their weapons, gear, mounts, etc. From the commenters, though, this is something seen as overwhelmingly positive by players who never even attempted ranking. I would classify it as something of a necessity to retain the PvP system as close as it is to the original to retain unique social microcosm it facilitates.

Sand Marshal
Something I have noticed that was omitted from the PvP post was the running of sands in Era. For the longest time in Era there were simply not enough players to PvP to rank. So regularly there would be pool parties to increase the pool and for grinding honor, players would run sands (Silithyst) in Silithus for honor. It made a very unique dynamic of Silithus being the PvP zone and the de facto way to rank. This was very much reflective of the Bug Grind for Scarab Lord as it required the assistance from other players and made for another unique ranking system. However, with the recent boon of players came the advent of botters and gold sellers. There is concern, now, that some rankers are buying gold and offering gold in Silithus in order to other players for running Silithyst to them at the turn-in spot. They are colloquially known as “Sand Marshals” and due to the nature of the current, social PvP system, they are no more than nuisance bracket breakers. However, if the PvP system was to change to an individual progression system, then bad actors can effectively buy r14 for real money and only diminish the social value of the rank 14 even further.

In short, I would advise against changing the ranking system and save it for the seasonal servers as a QoL change. Fundamentally, though Era should be left as it is.

3 Likes

No one with a full time job can get r14 in theoiginal system. It required 12-16 hours PER DAY of playing. Also. It takes a heck of a lot more than a “few weeks” of craziness… try a few months

Ok now I KNOW you’re lying. Its simply impossible to get that high doing 4 "nights " a week (i assume by nights you mean like after work and dinner but before bed so maybe like… 6pm to midnight at the MOST). Thats a FRACTION of the time required to hit r14. A FRACTION. If you really got 3 r14s and a r13, you spent over a year of your life unemployed doing nothing but playing wow for every waking hour.
Unless you got your kids and/or wife to take turns while you were at work. Otherwise, what you claim is just not possible

I don’t lie in any of my posts.

I’ve got proof of the characters I ranked and my journey all over my post history. If I really wanted to get into it I could send people I ranked with to verify or even post screenshots and paystubs showing I ranked with a job (and some of this all was during covid because it was in classic, so there wasn’t any going out and work was from home). Will I do the work to prove what I said to you with any of that? No, because I don’t have to prove anything to you and I know that I don’t lie in any of my posts.

Also, it would have been easier for me to do any of the following:

  1. Be super happy “because I can finally get rank gear with a life” or “I don’t have to deal with the mafia” or whatever else people parrot as if they were all the same person posting.
  2. Post one-liners that don’t get into anything
  3. Not post.

No, if I’m passionate about something I will post and I will tell my true stories because I’m not doing so to fit in or anything else. My posts in this thread are not too bad either, mostly happiness about having memories and just saying I don’t think that Era should change because that was never the intention of it to change. That’s also because I saw tbc and then Wrath change and the result was imo something unrecognizable. It’s totally ok that most people are happy with this change. I know. I have yet to hate on happy people even though I keep getting hated on.

Oh, and people hate on me because my perspective is unique, and then when called out for being nasty in their posts they rarely apologize… because jerks either keep believing their stereotypes or believe it’s “lies” or just don’t think of the person they are attacking generally, simply because that person has another perspective. It’s unfortunate because WoW is now is filled with so many of these types: Selfish, judgmental jerks to whom it is beneath them to understand others and to whom they do not apologize because really they are not quality people. Sadly they make the game and likely the whole world a far worse place.

I am a “live and let live” type until I get attacked which is when I will defend myself. The people who attack those with less popular opinions are not “live and let live” types but people who want everyone to conform to them, or conform to the majority. Sad.

Anyway, if you plan to rank in Era you no longer have to think beyond the number, and you don’t have to work with any other person and you can just focus on you, so if that’s your thing congrats.