Not sure if devs read these forums but I figured I wanted to give feedback.
The new class tree is pretty confusing. I can’t see any decent synergies, it’s just a lot of very meh choices.
Capstones are really forgettable, not exciting at all.
Dusk and Dawk compared to something like Abombs Limb is sad. Abombs limb feels like an iconic DK abilitya t this point, Dusk and Dawn is the worst talent of the worst covenant choice and has not improved since no one took it in Shadowlands.
Its ok to remove throughput if you put talents that actually do something in their place. But the fact that all of our good talents are in the top of the tree instead of the bottom (you know, the ones that should define your build), is dumb.
Throughput nodes are meaningless in the class tree.
We had no points loose to choose anything before.
Now we have 4-5.
Everyone is tune to do loosely X amount of damage, it doesn’t matter if 10-20-30% of it comes from the class tree, they would have adjusted it anyway.
Might as well be things the damage isn’t balanced around for choices.
Like I said, the choices aren’t exciting but the tree as a whole is a lot healthier than it was previously.
Your build should be defined by your role in the spec tree, you might be able to get away with it on the class tree with pure DPS classes but Paladin can do all 3 roles.
Pretty close to nothing. Some are really really undertuned. I’m sorry but I can’t agree with what they have done to the tree at the current moment.
Most of them are talents that I would never take nor they make any noticieable change, but now I have too because there is literally no choice if you want to get to a capstone like Dusk and Dawn or to Seal of Might/Vengeful Wrath.
I’m with Indö in this one, I’d rather have throughput talents with little to no variety and 4% haste over the current ones. And it’s not even close. Most of them just aren’t fun or interesting.
The tuning is off sure, but it’s off everywhere, look at shamans and Rogues.
That’s not in contention.
Is it structurally better and does it allow customization?
It is and it does.
It’s not perfect, they should have change it so that we can’t access all capstone.
Instead of doing that, they made it so the capstone themselves are kind of “meh” or situational.
Not would I have preferred but better than the last one.
Like, you know what would have been a cool capstone?
When you use Divine shield, you apply BoS to X nearby allies.
Something in this wheelhouse, 3 times at the bottom, seperated so you can’t take all 3.
Beacause they dont do anything worthwhile? Because they feel really niche?
Lightforged Blessing didn’t need the nerf for holy.
Lead the Charge is a extremely unimpactful and doesn’t reduce your own CDS only allies. Worth taking at all? Up to you honestly.
Righteous Protection is not worth the point, its extremely niche and umimpactful as well.
Worthy Sacrifice is literally a wasted of your Sac most of the time.
Blessed Calling is fine, again, not even worth 1 point. Redundant with Echoing Blessings almost.
Holy Ritual healing for 1/5 of a Holy Shock is mental. Same for a Just Reward.
Inspired Guard is ok-ish. Not good, not that bad.
Selfless healer is ok in ret and prot only.
Seal is the Crusader is still pretty minor. You wont notice you even have it talented.
Lightbearer is only taken in raids as Holy,
Faith’s Armor is only good in PVP/for Prot paladin since it doesn’t grant armor to target only yourself.
Eye for an eye, again PVP/prot talent.
Of all 3 capstone, only 1 is good and its the nerfed version of what we already had.
Most of them don’t really have much impact, be it for good or worse. For me they are just boring alltogether.
So yeah, most of them are pretty close to do nothing. I dont think its strictly worse than having talents like Strength of Conviction, but the customization we are getting is pretty bad at the moment nonetheless.
Better than the old one? Maybe. To me it seems they just replaced one bad talent design wise with a just plain boring/undertuned one with no much interesting picks at all.
I like the paladin class tree being aimed at supporting others- that’s the whole essence of what it is to be a paladin over another class. I do have a few specific dislikes about it, though.
-Several of the bottom third’s talents are obviously targeted at protection and useless to ret and holy.
-A Just Reward and Holy Ritual are severely undertuned. I like the idea of both, but they are so weak that they feel like a wasted point to take. A Just Reward is skippable, but with Holy Ritual being in a keystone position and linking to several other nodes it feels very bad.
-Golden Path could use a buff. This may be nitpicky, but with the positional requirements it feels like it should do more. Running a key with a tank and two melee should be where this talent shines, but the healing from it is negligible.
Ideally that’s what we want the class tree to fulfill, your spec tree should be where the gameplay choice are.
PVP talents are totally weird I agree, totally skippable to.
Spec specific talent in the classe tree? Out of there also please.
Capstones? Please rework pathing to get to them and make them cool utilities instead of these for sure.
But for the rest, if the only thing we can fault them on is tuning, then it’s not a design problem anymore, it’s just a nob they need to turn to the right or to the left.
The real disappointment, IMO, is the lack of iteration it received because you’re right, it gives off vibes of an unfinished tree as far as impact goes.
I’m not 100% against these talents either. It’s just that the tuning right now is off or there are QoL issues with a lot of them.
For example, why Lead the Charge doesn’t work on yourself as well?
Righteous Protection could have been an upgrade adding an additional effect to Sac as well, while being a choice node with a Sacrifice of the Just. Even combine it with Recompense since both are pretty bad talents.
Yeah we know Worthy sacrifice was bugged, but what’s the point of having an auto-sac talent? At least let it proc once off cooldown to have it as a good emergency DR once every 2 mins.
Blessed calling could be 25% or 30% buff to speed and it would be decent as a niche talent. Add inmunity to forced movement as well and now we are talking.
Seal of the Crusader, Golden Path,Judgement of Light are talents that straight up shouldn’t exist. They are both boring and/or undertuned.
Some of the rest like Stoicism are just PVP talents and shouldn’t be in a class tree.
How some of them are just worthwile to be use as Protection is also a issue.
Only talents that I see so far interesting or good to take are consecrated ground, Empyreal War and Divine Reach, and that’s about it.
I think a talent tree with no throughput nodes is a sick idea. However, if the tree is going to have no throughput, the nodes need to have some utility where you think “oh boy, that would be super helpful in xyz” scenario.
A good example of a talent that fits this sort of category right now is Consecrated Ground. Useless in nearly every raid encounter. Very useful in m+. Stand Against Evil in cases like the 2nd boss of Necrotic Wake (if it worked) are sick.
IMO, what players want out of a utility belt of a talent tree is cases where you as the player can showcase mastery and knowledge over the talent tree and show off the cool tools you bring to the table.
20% stun reduction, 20% armor to the paladin when you cast WoG for 4.5 seconds, thorns (Eye for an Eye) during your personal DR, 10s shorter Forbearance. Even Divine Reach may have a very niche use in a spread fight where you happen to not have 2 paladins, but do you feel good for taking it. Lol no.
As a Holy Paladin who only engages in PVE, those talents have 0 use cases. Couple that with the handful of talents that do offer some healing power, and you’re left taking talents like Holy Ritual which heals the player after casting a blessing on them. That’s not cool or sick, or rewarding. That’s a piss poor excuse for a filler node. Change my mind.
And it is currently hit or miss on some of them.
While I don’t mind that it took this form for the moment, since I see it as a step in the good direction, the impact on some of the nodes is dubious, as you point out as well.
Tuning aside, the direction they took philosophically puts Holy in an odd place, support healing identity on Ret and Prot, sure.
But that’s literally Holy’s role.
Healing is throughput for Holy.
I think it’s possible to pull it off but they need to take a look at the more suspect talents such as those you mentioned.
The capstone also need to be reviewed at some point
The bubble one is an interesting effect and a cool tech if you run with multiple paladins but I feel it could be somewhere else in the tree, it doesn’t feel like an effect worthy of being a capstone.
I mentioned this above but one of the nice things you can do as Paladin is BoSacrifice someone and bubble to completely negate the damage.
I think it would have been nice as a capstone to offer this type of interaction when you bubble.
Like whenever you use bubble, you apply a BoSac to 4-5 nearby allies, maybe at a lower value like 10% DR instead of 20%.
At 10%, it wouldn’t be broken and it would embody the theme very well.
Lightbearer is kind of… backward?
It feels selfish while being selfless?
You share the heals you receive with others, making heals on you more efficient.
But wouldn’t it have been better to increase the efficiency of heals on others and receive this bonus on yourself instead?
Like, your party receives 5% more healing and that bonus healing also heal the paladin?
That might be broken tough and a tax on holy as well so…
Idk, interesting effect, again, maybe just not as a capstone?
It’s 3% speed for 1 point and the other stuff is the cherry on top. But yes, it would be awesome if it worked on ourselves.
We already have 2% speed with Obduracy, totalling 5% speed.
Blessed Calling is really good.
That together with Unbound Freedom makes it 45% movement speed on a short cooldown for you and others.
I have 120% speed baseline in Templar, that with Unbound Freedom means 165% speed on a very short cooldown, really good for positioning and doing mechanics.
I understand you’re making a point about the usefulness of that talent combination for Ret, but FWIW these talents are either bugged or very confusing for Holy.
We don’t get Unbound Freedom, we get Echoing Blessing and it increases movement speed on Freedom by 15% not 30%. It’s supposed to grant the movement speed increase on Freedom and then linger for 8 seconds after.
In my testing it’s 0% upfront and 15% for the 8 seconds after. I don’t think Blessed Calling works at all. With Echoing Blessing + Blessed Calling, freedom is 10% on cast and 15% after. With just Blessed Calling, Freedom is nothing.
Yeah that sounds like a bug.
It should add properly.
But like i said, for ret it’s super useful, it’s also really good in m+ for making your tank go faster between packs, helps with positioning as well. In my books that’s a dps increase for the party.
