Ok, i realised some classes counters others so i think its a good idea to amke a post about it so ppl can have an idea, consider it X1 open world combat, not arena, teams or comps.
X COUNTERS X
Warrior → Druid
Druid → Mage
Hunter → Rogue *
DH → Rogue *
Priest → Paladin / Mage
DK → Druid (somewhat)
(*) Note that rogues still gonna teoretically win any X1
Also every class counters itself.
Feel free to contribute and debate.
The idea of class counters doesn’t really apply when different classes can have wildly different specs that fulfill different roles altogether, so it’s really more about what is each specs primary function, secondary function, and tertiary benefits provided.
Damage: Sustained vs. Burst
Healing/Tankiness/Survivability: Sustained vs. Cooldowns (anti-burst) /Crowd Control effects
Mobility: Sustained/Passive vs Active/Triggered effects
Every spec needs to keep these in mind when considering balance and to that end every spec can have two of these that they do well, and one that they must have weakness in for there to be appropiate counters to different specs rather than classes themselves as specs have become more specialized and focused… however it’s important that the specs don’t become TOO focused on only one function at the cost of the a secondary function.
Each spec should do it’s primary function exceptionally well, it’s secondary should be strong but not as strong as it’s primary function, the tertiary function can be things like group buffs/utility that don’t exactly give the same “rock paper scissors” effect the primary and secondary functions do.
Each function needs to be balanced with respect to what each function does well and what each function is intended to do well, so it would not be appropriate for a primary function of DPS to do both great sustained AND burst damage. It has to be one or the other, or you will run into this scenario where the damage will either be way over the mark with regards to balancing or both sustained and burst will be underwhelming… essentially impossible to balance if each function doesn’t have a counterbalance/tradeoff respected with regards to overall design.
When classes have no weaknesses or tradeoffs it makes for boring gameplay because there’s no inherit sense of “risk-reward” which is where fun is generated from whether it’s acknowledged or not. Most players are not going to analyze their classes to this extent, much like watching a movie you aren’t going to sit there and breakdown it’s production elements… you are just going to watch it and enjoy the parts you like and disregard the parts you don’t without giving it much thought, but what you are sure of is you want to be left with a net-positive feeling by the end of risking your time invested into said entertainment.
Not only is it about the spec’s balance, but players also want to be able to feel like their “effort” and/or “skill level” can overcome certain weaknesses to a lesser extent and give them a feeling of “clutch” gameplay scenarios.
(very important for arena gameplay to have clutch moments, especially in the higher ranks where everyones skill/effort levels are high and have large amounts of time invested into their characters)
If you ever want WoW’s arena gameplay to be an iconic competitive Esports niche, it has to have depth of strategy, tactics, “rock paper scissors” and “micro” all these contributing for allowing for high skill cap clutch gameplay; all of these elments combined constitute the driving force behind iconic esports games that have endured for well over a decade if not more in most cases)*.
Good gameplay, much like food, sells itself.
It is all about “rock paper scissors” being applied correctly in order to achieve asymmetrical balance and as a result… “fun”.
Back in vanilla when the classes were brand new still and not nearly as developed (and not homogenized to the extent they are now) it was acceptable to use class vs class for balancing because with the exception of hybrids every class had a singular role and the different specs just went about it in slightly different ways. I feel classes have been overly homogenized and many specs have lost their “focus” as a result giving rise to glaring imbalances and the constant game of “whack-a-mole” with the nerf bat in recent years as the devs struggle to preserve balance across both PvE and PvP.
I do not feel that having different power scaling for PvE and PvP (especially with no tooltip indicating this functionality) is healthy for the game, in particular for players new to the franchise as it puts PvE and PvP players at odds with each other. None of this would be necessary either if proper “rock paper scissors” philosophy is applied correctly to each spec with regards to the class’s unique identity. Only when classes have reattained their unique “feels” or playstyles will it become possible to balance classes in a more nuanced fashion that does not require strong buffs/hard nerfs every other month.
Again this is why it’s so important to test extensively inhouse before pushing anything to PTR. PTR should be for debugging purposes mostly, not balance passes. Inhouse testing needs to be expanded and a larger budget needs to be implemented because I guarantee you it’s costing the company more money in lost revenue over time than it would be to keep a team of dedicated “alpha” testers staffed 24/7 365 to handle inhouse balance passes.
Not only do you have to consider what happens when you sour a customer with regards to one franchise, but how it will cost you unrealized gains from your other IPs within the same company.
Diablo 4 just got released? What if someone was turned off WoW because they didnt enjoy the game due to “XYZ” reasons and wants to go find a new game to play… well it would be easy to check out other IP offerings from the bnet launcher, yet they’ve lost confidence in the parent company due to their last time investment feeling squandered and will be far more likely to try a competitors IP instead.
If that customer finds the competitors IP more appealing/fulfilling they are not likely to be back anytime soon unless your competitors makes the same mistakes that estranged your players from your own game in the first place, and that’s all it takes to lose a customer for life potentially… at minimum that’s a lot of annual revenue off the table for extended durations.
ww → sub rogue
ww 0 protection from 1 shot in stun without trinket. which doesnt matter now when rogue will be ready to insta restun
ww → lock
amp curse, no crit ww on top of already nerfed crit
From what I’ve seen so far, and having played a rogue as my first character back in vanilla/TBC, rogues need more burst, less sustained damage (in PvP) and less survivability/durability. Their mobility is good.
The game is much different from how it was in Vanilla/TBC, pops.
Rogue should still counter Warlock.
Paladin should still counter Warrior.
Warlock should be able to counter Mage.
Should a prot/holy pally counter an arms/fury warrior?
Ret pally should be able to counter perhaps a fury warrior, but it should be an even match against arms/MS since the one real advantage in ret versus warrior would be the pallies bubbles/shields/healing. Fury warrior self heals should never outlcass hybrid self healing, warriors should need a healer/assist from another to overcome their particular counters.
I agree with the rogue versus warlock because warlock is pure caster DPS, each spec plays different but their functions are all the same, however a rogue that isnt’ played properly should go down easily to nearly any class. The tradeoff is a rogue played well can not only do great burst, they can control a 1v1 skirmish and shutdown caster DPS/healers quite well. Their counter being melee DPS/Tanks. A rogue should never beat a tank without popping all cooldowns and even then, it should be kind of hairy/unlikely.
Rogues are meant to be glass cannons.
Warlock versus mage, no. They are identical in all their specs primary function (t1 DPS) so it should boil down to the individuals strategy, tactics/use of cooldowns/timing, gear, etc.
I suppose DKs do a better job countering Mages. I did consider the Warlock’s felhunter(it can Devour Magic to remove magic buffs, such as shields and other buffs) and Curse of Tongues, as anti-caster tools. Warlocks are also ranged, so it need not get too close(but Mages can move forward to use their close range stuff as well). Unstable Affliction autosilences when removed.
Also Warlocks have Banish, which can lock down a water elem. I’m not sure how important it is to do that nowadays…
If only. A rogue with a couple brain cells is impossible to kill because Cheat Death is in the class tree now, and they all have multiple Vanishes.
No we don’t lol.
I like rogues and mages being about damage and CC.
Thats very true
No class can actually kill a druid tank, DK and pala for example, dont know about other tanks
they cant be that fragile to die in a stun and remember its a team game.
Its not that immortal if u play one, they die very quiqly in a CC chain.
Also what makes rogues escape isnt the vanish but the cloak, wich they only have one.
Alot of wrong in this thread. More need to go out to duelotar or elwynn forest and watch good players duel.
Great locks beat just about everything 1v1. The good ones that can kite and no all the counters.
Mm counters casters.
Dk isnt in a good spot rn, but they counter casters/locks
Fury wins almost everything except against good locks/mages.
Rets, spriests, enhance, are great atm as well as rogues but can still lose to above classes.
Other classes are good and can win duels depending on skills of players but above is the most common outliers ive seen this season.
Yes a d stance fury with second wind can beat rogue as well as locks and a couple other classes.
afflock will drain life spam any fury with one hand but this doen’t matter because current world pvp is a meme
food for +20% secondary stat
10x stack of 6pc world pvp set
assassin +15% dmg / heal buff
bakar buff +50% or 100% dmg
wpvp consumable +25% dmg or +50% crit chance
There’s a lot more but this is why WPvP can be so fun. I run around with all of this plus more as a Discipline Priest in WPvP and I love it.
DH → WW
Mage → WW
Rogue → WW
Nothing counters disc priest! We just do stuff
Prot War hard counters Rogue. They should never get a Prot War below 60% HP. The Prot can just nuke them and kill them in a stun chain. It’s a total mismatch. Probably one of the biggest hard counters in the game.
Prot War is probably the biggest solo threat in WPvP cause they can fight anything. They have an amazing tool kit and they keep buffing execute. I just hit a 2.3 mil sudden death execute on a fury warrior and killed him in a shield charge stun.