But it’s not just the crest cost, it’s the time it takes to get them. If you are lucky enough to run 
% of keys with a good group that’s different but pugging is like a box of chocolate.
Totally agree that Blizzard should stop designing the entire game’s gearing system around forcing people into M+.
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People that just want to raid should be able to do that. The same as people who only want to do M+ should be able to do that as well.
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Iron Curtain is the only solution, like we have with PvP gear since season 2 of shadowlands.
M+ gear shouldn’t work (or should work at a lower rate) in raids, and vice-versa for raiding gear & M+.
How they interact with open world or delves, I don’t particularly care.
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I think so too. At this point you have M+ players wanting to be able to farm dungeons for mythic raid ilevel gear, without dealing with the vault at all. The only way that wouldn’t be completely insane is if it was much lower in the raid. Otherwise… that’s just insane entitlement and wanting to eat several cakes.
What in the world are you on about?
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I don’t think locking out one PVE content from another is the solution.
Also, while it does suck when M+ feels mandatory for raiding, it is nice to have an alternate source of upgrades when you are stuck on a prog boss and can’t fill the vault with raid.
Rather than downgrading or separating M+ gearing, I would be OK if they simply removed raid lock outs. If devs are concerned removing raid lockout would affect WF race, they can just implement it once there is a WF kill.
I’m not a fan of the weekly vault of disappointment, but I also don’t think grindable max power with no restrictions is good for the game either.
I do think at maybe month 3 of 5 for a season they add mythic track for 12s or 13s as a form of catchup since you are hard locked to 1 per week no matter what.
It’s a hard balance though because are already pretty rewarding for their (lack of) difficulty, especially for crests and by extension crafted gear.
The entire history of M+ is M+ players being this:
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That’s a pretty good option, considering with original bonus rolls, we just got some gold and that was it.
… it’s a bonus roll. What are you even on about?
No, the Vault is great.
This. 
It’s not a bad system. Did you even play the game before M+, bonus rolls or the Vault?
How you managed to equate a bonus roll with FOMO, I don’t even want to know.
Well that’s just false.
Two entirely different people disagreed with you. That doesn’t make them the same person nor trolling. 
Learn to check your claims before you make ridiculous accusations.
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Please keep that to the relevant threads.
That is an interesting idea. I wouldn’t mind it, but you know what will happen.
Once mythic track becomes available on +12/13, people will complain that 12s and 13s should be more “accessible”.
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Raiding has a long list of necessary fixes, don’t get me wrong.
- Make bosses individually skippable after killing them.
- No more spreadsheet bosses.
- Flex-scaling Mythic up to 30.
- Less trash.
- Double/triple loot drop rate to bring it on par with M+ on a per-person/time basis.
- Remove the raid lockout to address the M+/raid lockout disparity.
- Remove Great Vault, or change it to be an insurance system like it was originally meant to be. Details here:
meanwhile i slacked and got the myth sacbrood anyways…
rng is a weird beast.
picked tokens on a few weeks where i worked hard and now i’m slacking and i actually get things i need lol
Honestly I think M+ was probably a mistake. I wish they’d at least cap it at the level it stops giving gear upgrades so they’re not constantly talking about theoretical “it becomes impossible so it’s harder than mythic raids” by people who just do enough to fill their vaults and don’t climb. It’s insufferable. You don’t see mythic raiders dunking on people who do content lower than they do. You constantly see very mid M+ guys trying to flex on stuff they aren’t even doing themselves.
if they want to add mythic track loot to the end of dungeon chest, I’d be fine with that. But it’s not going to be done in +10s. 13/14s maybe?
The dirty secret hidden in the basement closet, that nobody wants to talk about, is that M+ was never popular. The easy gear rewards were very popular, though.
We saw the same thing with the introduction of Arena in TBC, when it was super “popular” because you got a free piece of Tier 5 equivalent loot every week for losing 10 games. So people would just queue up naked to lose as quickly as possible and get their 10 losses out of the way.
Now that it’s harder most people are ignoring it. If it was about it being “fun” or a “nice challenge” people would still be doing it. It being a loot piñata since legion is why it’s been popular. People will always take the path of least resistance.
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without m+ id be raidlogging only. glad it’s there tbh.
changes the game from a 2 short nights a week thing to an everyday thing for me.
that’s cool in my book.
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You can have a competitive 5-man experience with leaderboards and stuff without having the entire game revolve around it.
It was called Challenge Mode and it was run successfully in MoP and WoD.
Just without the welfare gear.