We like to passionately argue about non-existent elves and monsters on the internet.
What better way to show said passion than by engaging in some good ol’ fashioned nerd debates about WoW lore-related subjects?
I find that playing devil’s advocate and attempting to change peoples’ minds about their opinions (even if you share them!) is a good way to inspire some healthy debate. I’ll start us off!
Change my view: I believe Azeroth moving in the direction of more nuanced political intrigue rather than “rahhh orcs and humans killing each other” is a better story and leads to more interesting writing possibilities.
When replying to someone else’s hot take, remember to mention one of your own at the end.
To me it feels as a generic arc of generic villains losing to even more generic heroes, with more and more homogenization of aforementioned heroes so they don’t come across the wrong way.
If they are, then they are only showing the barest of glimpses to try and hook those of us who care without actually putting in the massive overhauls of systems, maps, quests, characters, factions, short stories, cinematics, and novels that we need to make it feel as if thats the case. The glimpses, or even just mentions, of the House of Nobles, Zandalar, our new roster of leaders, and events show they want to move that direction, but are unable to and in doing so have left a world more stagnant and bland than what we were introduced to in Classic. In short - old world revamp now.
For my own - While the Forsaken ‘winning’ so much land in Cataclysm was emotionally rough for many Alliance folks (even some Horde who then missed Tarren Mill vs Southshore fun), it was logistically and thematically correct for what the Forsaken are, how they wrote the zones in Classic, and for the development they received up through Wrath. Completely coherent, intelligent, cunning, and durable* zombies overrun rag tag humans who hardly have a proper force in the region, let alone the light users that are suppose to ‘counter’** them? Absolutely! The Forsaken, at Cataclysm, narratively deserved Silverpine, WPL, Alterac, and Arathi.
It is a narrative/writing failure, as presented, that both show the Forsaken far less dangerous than what they are, and the humans as far stronger/prepared than what they were.***
*We’re going to ignore Golden’s “my hands can fall off if I pick up a pencil” and substitute it for the proper 'I got cut in half and sewed back together like nothing happened Nazmir squad
**We’re still going off the assumption that the Light is particularly harmful to the undead and there simply were not enough paladins, priests, and holy water around to stop them.
***It is clear Gilneas and the Worgen were a great opportunity, and were used initially, to be the anti-Forsaken force - incredibly strong and fast, equally as intelligent and coherent as them, and largely immune to undeath. However, that theme seems to have been abandoned, nor was Gilnaes in a position in the immediate post Cataclysm to be that force.
I’ve always thought they should be far more than just quirky british supersoldiers-- they should be the Alliance’s narrative foil to the forsaken. Dangerous and unpredictable allies suffering from internal torment. Powerful at the cost of their stable, human minds.
It should be a bonesnappingly painful American Werewolf in London-style affair, not just… a plume of smoke, and they’re back to human again.
Agreed except after that they shouldve faced the entire wrath of the alliance, cenarion circle, and probably garrosh too for using the plague. The idea that forsaken are now raising the dead and expanding territory south shouldve immediately alerted every alliance outpost on the continent and prompted swift action from Varian (who already raided Undercity in Wrath and basically declared war at that point anyhow).
hot take: Vol’jin was a bad leader and one of the worst trolls of all time, who attacked other troll tribes, alliance, orcs and pretty much you name it.
Forsaken deserve to own all of Lordaeron. There I said it. Alliance has enough lands. They don’t need even more. The awful inbalances have to be fixes. Otherwise the game will die.
If this was a tv or book series, I would absolutely agree with you because buildup leads to pivotal moments/action scenes in any literary works. Though, you have to remember that expansion packs really contain about 3-5 patches of content (not including the mini ones) that have to not only fill that giant central narrative but 100s to possibly 1000s of subplots that either end their story there or converge to that central piece because there is ALOT of stories in Azeroth. Some stories could have that rich dialogue, or some could just be incredibly simple action element because they need to work on something else. Or both. Thier has to be some form of middle ground there to meet deadlines.
Those deadlines are every 2-3 years too, which to even make an expansion pack in that amount of time is wild and also for your game to do/look well/good/average is still remarkable. As they say, rushed product=rushed results.
I would argue the issue was not the Forsaken winning. The issue was that during Cata the Alliance faced losing over and over. The Alliance players experienced lose after lose. They closest to wins the Alliance got was stalemates. So, the Forsaken winning was less of an issue itself and more of just a piling on. Had the Alliance been having real wins elsewhere it wouldn’t have really been an issue.
Personally I blame the fact the Horde questing was done first. And when writing quests from scratch it is normal to make the heroes win. So, the Horde questing established the Horde winning. When the Alliance questing was being built it was now limited by what the Horde questing had already established. So, the quests could not be built to win. And you can see some of that in the battles with the Forsaken pretty clearly. Where the Alliance questing is go do X thing, you return and are told we lost and are retreating. But that is probably a whole different discussion.
There are a couple problems with that.
The first is how. The unfortunate nature of how they choose to do the whole “zombies overrun” called into question what players believed about the Forsaken, the whole free will thing being important to the Forsaken. Narratively it was saying that they really didn’t care about free will and were totally fine with raising mind controlled minions. (Personally, I think that actually fit with Vanilla lore, but again separate discussion.) This lead to Forsaken fans being upset and back peddling by Blizzard. They had to try and create a convoluted scenario explaining how it really wasn’t mind control, but it was, kind of. That lead to a bad narrative.
Second, and the bigger issue is actually the larger narrative. The way the Forsaken were portrayed in Cata was a near unstoppable scourge 2.0 that was very much doing very evil things. And that causes a problem.
In a narrative there are two ways you can have an nation or group doing things the rest of the world would view as evil and dangerous. One, you can have it be largely unknown. If the world at large doesn’t know, it makes sense they are not trying to stop it. Two, you can make the nation seem like it isn’t really a threat, that it can be contained. If everyone thought the Forsaken were easily contained/stopped it would make sense for the characters to feel like they didn’t need to mobilize and stop them.
The problem with the Forsaken in Cata was that their actions were both well known AND they were shown as extremely dangerous, a real threat to the world. They even had characters calling out their similarity to the scourge. In a world that had been ravaged by the scourge, having a new one suddenly and massively growing should have motivated a massive response. And not just from the Alliance. The Argents should have been involved, heck even races in the Horde should have been saying we have to stop this. Do you really think it makes sense for the Blood Elves to be cool with a new scourge?
So, narratively what should have happened based on the Cata portrayal is for the better part of the world to come down on them and shatter the Forsaken. This would be especially true if they took even more land (like you suggested they deserve) than they did in Cata. But that couldn’t happen because it was a playable race and Blizzard couldn’t destroy them as would be the logical result of the narrative they told in Cata.
What should have happened in Cata was that the Forsaken got some good wins and progressed into the Plaguelands. But then when they pushed south they lost big. Either from Alliance troops arriving, destroyed leadership, or even the Argents getting involved. Something should have happened to break their advance in a way that would make sense for the world to think they were containable and not a threat on par with the scourge. Them gaining ground into the Plaguelands and being stopped when they tried to leave it would have both given them new grounds and wins but would also have made sense for them to be largely left ‘alive.’
For my hot take:
BfA should have had the Horde break up. Have races start just leaving the Horde. Start with Blood Elves (furthest away from any Sylvanas retribution). Have them leave and sign a non-aggression pact with the Alliance. Follow that with other races one after the other snowballing. Horde PCs could choose when to leave. As the Horde breaks up the need for an Alliance to defend against the Horde goes away. You can then have things like various races signing treaties with specific members of the Alliance first and causing tension with those who weren’t part of the peace negotiation.
It could end very much the same way. Just instead it is Sylvanas and some loyalist seizing Orgrimmar and taking hostages. Saurfang’s fight could be to turn the last of the loyalists and free the hostages.
But the key point is the Horde as a single government is gone. Each of the races now make treaties on their own. And without the Horde as a threat, the Alliance also effectively ends. Some Alliance races would likely still have some conflict with Horde races, but they would not be backed by the whole Alliance. And others would grow closer. For example, you could see the Tauren and Night Elves even developing a partnership. The game moves forward with just small groups of partnerships. Alliance and Horde as factions ended. Former Horde races can gain rep with former Alliance races and enter their cities. Former Alliance races can earn rep with Horde races and enter their cities. The factions end. (Which also means there is no way for a faction war to ever happen again.)
There are a number of issues here, perhaps some of my own conciseness that led to incorrect leaps.
“Zombies overrunning” the human settlements was more of a tongue and cheek short hand and less of a World War Z description. If we want to analogize what I see, would be fully cognizant Necrons from 40K. The bodies might get mangled and destroyed, but as long as enough is not destroyed or recovered in time, its a matter of stitching the poor sap back together with replacement parts, potentially from the very folks you just killed. Get it while its hot! Still, none of this refutes that the Forsaken, given what they are, shouldn’t have made it as far as they did. The free will and Valkyr debate is not here, as you mention.
To the Forsaken doing “evil” things, they are either resolved internally, a result of too many cooks in the kitchen (and a raging misogynist), or similar to other environmental catastrophes and only have the aesthetics of “evil.” Stillwater is case and point for resolving internal issues. He was sentenced to true death (only to be brought back ) for his experiments. Southshore is little different than other environmental disasters except for original intent, a particularly potent blight strain causing years of coming damage. We’d like to have a world with Naralex as well, or the dwarves as whole. This is all to say little of who took over the writing for Sylvanas from Wrath on, that brings us to the issues of Cataclysm. Insinuating the Garrosh quote calling Sylvanas the Scourge isn’t the argument you think it is.
Your wish for everyone coming down the Forsaken not only rooted in pure ‘Forsaken bad’ headcanon (despite getting your wish years later), but completely ignores the Alliance’s own hardships at this time. The reason in Classic the Alliance is sent to work with the Scarlets, before realizing they went insane, is because they have no force up there and are unable to get one there. They could hardly get through Wetlands and Arathi, then we see how weak Southshore itself is. Then they have all their internal issues of course. Come Cata, Stormwind is hardly rebuilt and is dealing with the Defias 2.0, Ironforge nearly had a civil war, and Kalimdor is way over there, and the Horde is kinda on a roll in the war leaving resources for a new front sparse (which also speaks to your first point). The Forsaken also respect the Argent’s space and they held/hold a stance of not getting into faction politics as a neutral organization. So no further reason to go after the people, no matter how undead they are, who helped stamp out the Scourge proper and Scarlets.
And as seen, most of this seems to stem from this anti-Horde and anti-faction wish that hammers at the foundation of the world and franchise. So it still stands that it makes narrative sense that the Forsaken are where they are at come Cata.
That would certainly have been a been a better approach. And that would have solved the smaller issue.
But to be clear, I don’t ultimately think the idea of a very powerful Forsaken could not make sense narratively. It is more the other problems that come along with it.
I think you might have missed my meaning. Maybe I should have been more clear. And saying evil might not have been the best way to communicate it.
So, you have to keep in mind the setting of the world. WoW itself starts in what is essentially a post apocalypse. Arguably the most powerful nations in the world, and certainly in the Eastern Kingdoms, were Lordaeron, Quel’thalas, and Dalaran. And they were all decimated by the scourge. Then the WotLK expac started with a scourge invasion of the entire world. That triggered every major power, and many minor ones, to panic and send everything they had to Northrend. And they nearly failed.
Okay, set that backdrop. Now think about what the Forsaken effectively exploding out of the ruins of Lordaeron, where the scourge presence in the Eastern Kingdoms originally exploded out from. The game had them decimating Gilneas, wiping out all of Hillsbred and taking most of Western Plaguelands. That alone should have made most of the world go, ‘hold on, we can’t let this happen again.’ Then add in them using scourge tactics. Think about what that actually would have looked like to the rest of the world.
And then there is the blight being even more dangerous than what the scourge used.
Even if we discount some of the evil things like Stillwater or other experiments that might not have been known of outside Forsaken lands, just what the other nations saw on the front line should have made the Forsaken enemy #1 for most of the world. A scourge-like race, using scourge tactics, taking even lands the scourge did not touch should have made everyone see them as the new scourge that had to be stopped.
It isn’t about whether he was correct or not. It is about both the fact that is exactly how most of the world would have seen it. And note, the writers were calling attention to the similarity.
So, it doesn’t really matter if the Forsaken were actually evil. It doesn’t matter if they addressed the most grievous things internally. What matters is how it would present to the world. And the fact that with just what was done in game should have brought most of the world down on them is a major narrative failing in that story. It was VERY clear the Forsaken only avoided being wiped out because of plot armor. And you were suggesting that even more territory should have been taken. That would have made the problem even worse.
It is always bad story telling when the plot armor becomes noticably visible. And it was glowing with the Forsaken story telling around Cata.
After gaining some ground, the Forsaken should have taken a significant lose that would make the rest of the world not see them as a massive threat. That is the only way to avoid the narrative hole around the Forsaken plot armor.
We could get into why the Horde, including the Forsaken, were not allowed to lose anything during Cata. But that is a whole different discussion. It just created a lot of problems, especially around the Forsaken.
The biggest piece missing from BFA was the Zandalari invading Kul Tiras. Not with the aid of their already impressive but damaged navy but with the aid of powerful loas of earth, sea and air.
The Alliance had made a grave mistake in defiling ancient altars in the Battle of Dazar’Alor and Kul Titas should’ve paid the price.
I mean they had early European colonial and Meso-American styled armor for Christ’s sake and never went head to head. The scenario should’ve been that the Alliance had gone way too hard, in no small part thanks to their addition of the Void Elves and Dark Iron, and were now getting their own reprisal.
We could’ve had magical laser t-rexs charging at 16th century British port forts. Get out of my face if that doesn’t sound dope.
Instead all the Kul Tiran boats crash I guess then Talanji handles the non-response her GOLDEN EMPIRE gave in an off screen book. Which is mainly about her being just a terrible friend. Like Tala, I get you had a lot on your mind, but just sort of forgetting your childhood best friend was being crushed under a pillar is pretty unforgivable.
The Forsaken consolidating all of northern Lordaeron is a sad but believable and subversive story development that just rocks. The zombies gaining sentience after the zombie apocalypse, then creating a new self aware undead empire in the former seat of humanity is metal. And they’re coherent enough that they basically have to be respected.
I always felt the Forsaken should have leaned into the cult of Sylvanas more, with dying folks, or just fanatics purposefully giving their lives to be transformed into immortal forsaken.
I think I posted this before but… I just post one of my Lore Opinions:
“I speculate Azshara’s main goal is to usurp Elune as Goddess and if the unification of the Elves is a success it could play a part in her plan, specially if she willingly join it out of the blue”
Also having Naga playable would be cool too… but this is just a theory inspire by seeing a series called Dota: Dragon Blood… We will have to see if my guess is close to mark.
Hide a bit of Spoilers just in case someone wants to see it out of curiosity
Where the current Moon goddess was called the usurper by the Old goddess faithful who with the help of the “Evoker” (who I think inspire the design of Kael’thas in Warcraft as Dota is much older game I think) stole and killed the Old goddess powers
Who cares when most of the characters lack the legacy and development of the older cast that has mostly been shuffled out of the leadership roles? Also, we’ve yet to see any political nuance. Alliance and Horde have been excessively buddy buddy outside of some obligatory throwaway “rahh other side smelly” dialogue in the max level campaign.
Change my view: Something needs to happen in the story that puts the factions at odds with one another again without villainizing either side. No all out war, but at least a cold war. Maybe then we’d get some actual nuance.
Oh, and it can’t be something excessively dumb like a massacre orchestrated by disguised twilight hammer members. Something that actually makes sense and isn’t predicated on in-story stupidity.
That’s just a BFA thing, that whole expansion was basically 3-4 wrapped into one conglomeration. Updates to some of the older zones, better warfronts, islands actually be somewhat fun, much more engaged aspects of the campaign that made you feel like you were actually making a difference instead of just assigning a follower to go grab some supplies from wherever.
I would’ve begged for a Naga themed expansion since those naga were once the elves that ruled the entire realm of Azeroth, but we got only one patch that had an amazing zone, and we haven’t seen Azshara since 2018 when she was hyped to be a big bad but ended up a side character to another story.
An N’zoth expansion with at least one raid dedicated to people we know fondly succumb to the powers of the old god would’ve gone SO hard. I mean this old god was the master manipulator, why didn’t this thing have a contingency plan with our allies to turn on us like Deathwing did?
Talanji should’ve been the boss fight, not Rastakhan. That would’ve been a huge character moment seeing a father watch her child’s life fade away into the clutches of the devil he made a deal with. Would’ve gone so hard and would’ve made up for Talanji being basically a Mary Sue. Like Med’an.
Just to throw another one out here: The recharacterization of Blood Knights from commanders and wielders of the Light to practitioners, arguably even to some worshipers, was a mischaracterization of the Blood Knights as initially presented that hooked many of their players.
This is something said fairly often here, sometimes short handed to make the Blood Elves ‘edgy’ again and I’d refute that wish or goal. We do not need a new army of edgy Blood Knights running around telling every Naaru they see ‘I am my trauma!’, and then draining them. However, we need to see more pragmatism and contempt for the Light as a whole, in combination of showing how the Blood Mages derived the methods used for draining and harnessing the Light as they do with the Arcane and conceived the Blood Knights. That methodology should, largely, transfer over from taking from one source to another and remain the basis of their practice.
It is noted when Rommath (who can be a whole extra post) first met Liadrin, she was a dissatisfied priest with nothing but contempt for the Light. The headache inducing Light draining does not have to remain, but the contempt for the Light, the fickleness of it, the disdain for the ‘faith’ one needs to wield it, should remain. That was her initial characterization. While people change the depth of the trauma suffered by Blood Elves, like Liadrin, to even dare take on the Light again despite the headaches, the feeling of shattering glass, or sometimes numbness sticks with folks and needs to be shown. That will, not faith, to overcome and posses the Light in these ways or conditions as masters of it doesn’t just disappear, especially when it was nearly your founding doctrine. So furthering the idea of mastering the Light from the Sunwell should be an objective and shown as a science much like how mages master their magics.
Adding to feelings of contempt, that scorned prejudice against Light worshipers and the aspiration for mastery over the light should have remained or make a resurgence. Bring a little Spell Breaker methodology into it, strive to learn how to turn off someone else’s’ connection to the Light.
These things make Blood Knights distinct from your run of the mill Paladin, even their peers in the Sunwalkers and Prelates.
No shade to you, OP, but nobody actually wants their view changed when they start discussions like this. I’m sure you know that. It’s what people like Steven Crowder do.
This is a very common opinion in the lore community. Who disagrees with this besides a handful of racists?
Anyway my hot take is that WoW needs a companion system. Games with better stories, like SWTOR, have it.
) for his experiments. Southshore is little different than other environmental disasters except for original intent, a particularly potent blight strain causing years of coming damage. We’d like to have a world with Naralex as well, or the dwarves as whole. This is all to say little of who took over the writing for Sylvanas from Wrath on, that brings us to the issues of Cataclysm. Insinuating the Garrosh quote calling Sylvanas the Scourge isn’t the argument you think it is.