Cathedral Square Policies

Moon Guard
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So, it happened once again. Just another day in Stormwind where some hooligan attempted to enter the Cathedral Square with manifestations of the void. It’s not the first time it has happened, nor will it be the last. And if it’s not manifestations of the void, it could be demons, undead minions, or violence.

As you can predict - the response usually breaks down into an argument of who has the rights to enforce the law. An all together difficult matter when the laws of the Kingdom of Stormwind are not known in lore, but are the pure matter of player speculation.

But then there was the thought I stumbled upon which I think solves this matter all-together, which I would like to share with the community.

While I prefer to keep details such as my real name private, I am open enough to share that I am a seminarian on my way towards ordination to become a Priest in the real world. Believe it or not - there can be times where there are violent people or obtuse, disruptive personalities which need to be removed from the atmosphere of prayer and reverence.

A real world example would be how members of Femme have attempted to crash religious services in Cathedrals in Europe. Because they are on private-property, the clergy are within their rights to see them removed.

In the same way that this matter is handled in the real world, I propose it be handled in the context of the Cathedral of Light in World of Warcraft. And I will note as well that this is not unique to any one religious practice in the world - it is universal to all religious institutions.

The fact of the matter is that we have been so caught up in claims over who has more authority per military or deputy status, that we can overlook a mind-numbingly simple fact, which even I have only now thought to consider when I compare real-world practice.

While we cannot truly infer what the laws of Stormwind are, this much we can be certain of: That the Cathedral of Light and the Cathedral Square are ecclesiastical lands. In otherwords - the Cathedral Square is private property owned by the Church of the Holy Light, and not Public property. Just the same as any real-world Cathedral, Church, Temple, Synagogue, or Mosque in almost any country throughout the world.

Being that the Cathedral is in-fact, private property, any representative of the Church is within their rights to see disruptive, unwanted, or unsolicited persons removed. In the same exact way that any business owner can refuse business or see a guest removed from their place of business if that person is in violation of that business’s policy.

It seems like no imaginative leap to assume that anyone summoning a demon, void-tentacle, or undead minion would be in violation of the Cathedral’s ordinances.

Therefore, I’d say that the debate of Cathedral guards and enforcers is less on par with police or martial law, but more with security guards. And just as it would occur with any modern conflict, if the situation escalates the security guard is within their rights to remove the person by force. Should it escalate further, the intelligent thing to do is to contact the police.

Therefore, when it comes to a matter of demons, void-tentacles, unread minions, violent, etc. - any issue which any intuitive mind can assume would be against the comfort of the Cathedral dwellers - any person who role-play’s a representative of the Church of the Holy Light; paladin or priest particularly, should be within their rights to remove unwanted parties from the premises.

It’s not rocket-science. My point is purely that we’ve been overthinking the matter. We get into pissing contests about what rank someone is in the military or the guard. Really its much more simple than that - Cathedral property is private property.

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let’s not pretend any pact or agreement or forum post actually matters. you can make as many rules as you want on which behavior is appropriate and who has the right to kick people out or whatever, but these sorts of engagements will still happen and they will still, always come down to an OOC pissing contest.

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It’s very true. I’m not attempting to legislate anything. And I’m by no means optimistic that argument will suddenly disappear. I’m merely offering real-world comparison to help inform the logic of others.

It seems the most simple way to handle the matter, at-least according to my own faculties.

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All of that breaks down though in the face of reality:
There is no mechanism to actually remove people from the game world that a player can legally utilize.

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Religious institutions are able to enforce the removal of people from private property because of the existence of laws. We shall assume the laws of the Kingdom of Stormwind apply as I do not believe there is evidence that the Cathedral is some kind of Vatican-esque sovereign nation.

The institution will require a deed (or some other form of ownership recognized by the locale) to prove ownership, which can be either real persons or corporate entities, before it can assert any tort claims like nuisance or trespassing. We would have to then determine whether or not that deed is valid within the locale, as it would certainly have to meet specific requirements if you were trying to enforce it.

Next, we would have to look at Stormwind tort law to determine whether or not those disrupting the peace have a valid claim against them. This would include what someone would have to be doing to be “trespassing”, whether or not you require calculable damages, and what actions you can take without the assistance of the state (aka physically removing them). After all, you can’t just murder someone because they’re on your property.

We would then have to determine who has the authority to eject someone from the property. Just because you work somewhere doesn’t give you the overarching authority to make decisions on behalf of the institution or a property right in the institutions property. You would probably look at the responsibilities and position of the member of the institution (aka their rank) to determine whether or not they had that actual authority to do what they are doing on behalf of the property owner.

Given that we know next to nothing about anything I just mentioned, the solution isn’t just “property rights.”

It’s the ignore function.

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I strongly disagree that ignoring a player is the proper etiquette. Most players who are guilty of that type of action tend to be newer to RP, and I feel that “ignoring” them simply isolates them from RP rather than informing them. Let alone, it is taking an OOC action to something that could otherwise just be handled IC. Whether or not it escalates to OOC is really much up to the maturity of the players involved.

If a person demonstrates OOC hostility, then the ignore function is well solicited. But as a practice, I try to avoid doing that before someone has rightfully warranted that course of action.

I also disagree that we know next to nothing. It’s pretty obvious that the Church would have a rector holding the deed to Church lands. I don’t think that’s a liberal assumption to make. Nor do I feel its a wild, unfounded assertion to claim that Church property is private property considering that it is in-fact the Cathedral of Light - with an Archbishop inside.

You are correct in saying there are parameters we cannot define. But you have to admit - there’s a lot less that can go wrong with this approach than the typical,

“I’m an Officer of the Law, so my opinion is correct.”
“Well I’m a Grand Marshal so I trump your authority.”
“Well I’m a X, Y, Z” and so on. That seems to be what escalates.

An objector might say the same could occur between two different IC members of the Church attempting to pull authority on the other, but this article isn’t about that. It’s about players who are making such an obvious distraction that it involves desecrating the Cathedral grounds.

Summoning demons, or grave robbing.

We don’t have to know what the laws are, so long as we can assume that laws do exist. It is never for a player to legislate what those laws are. But something like private property? Come on now. That’s a universally applicable concept.

I assume that when I see the Galina Winery in the Canal District, that it actually belongs to the Gallina family. Why? Because it’s a bussiness place. Bussiness places are almost always private properties. I don’t need to see the NPC’s actual deed or read Stormwind’s laws to divine that. It’s inherent to assume.

The same is true with the Cathedral. It’s not a radical statement to say that the Cathedral of Light belongs to the Church of the Holy Light. Also considering that we are well informed in WoW lore that the Church of the Holy Light is an organization that extends well beyond Stormwind City.

Otherwise, if one were to follow the logic of your argument, we would be left to assume that there is no private property in WoW lore because we can not prove it and that is just outright silly and a ridiculous conjecture.

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This is a real world example.
In the game you cannot remove another player that refuses to recognize your authority or play the way you would choose. Ignore is appropriate if you cannot or will not agree.

Okay. Same sort of deal. Cannot come to an agreement with an individual or guild after all interested parties have presented their interpretation then work out a satisfactory arrangement for all? Ignore is then again appropriate and continue with your chosen role play.

Appears that not everyone is wanting to play nice in the sandbox. Sorry to hear that. But seems to me it would be more productive to work this out in game with people rather than obliquely call out here in the forum those you disagree with.

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Everything IC is related to OOC actions in some way. Your character is not acting autonomously, it is acting with your personal beliefs and biases informing it. Trying to keep something from ever “escalating to OOC” is the equivalent of arguing that “not everything is political”.

If your intention is not to isolate new players, then there’s an easy fix to ensure that everyone is consenting to the same world view: whisper them. Explain that your character is going to act in such and such way, and if they don’t want to engage with you in the way you’d like, then ignore them. RP is a game of consent, and no one should feel forced to engage in RP with which they do not agree.

What exactly are you trying to educate them about? Your own personal theory about which actions would be permitted by an organization created by someone else with different intentions? “Proper” RP etiquette? Your motivations are unclear.

It’s not a terribly bold assumption to make, but it is just as founded in Blizzard canon as literally anyone else holding title to the land beneath Cathedral Square. If you want to assert something as true (or close to being true), then I suggest citing to a source. If you don’t, then i have just as much evidence on my side that the High King of Stormwind owns that land, or that the citizens of Stormwind own the land in common.

But it’s not though. Thousands of human societies have existed in the real world without a concept of private property (not to be confused with personal property). Even if we are to assume that Stormwind works similarly to the last few hundred years of European societies, communal ownership or ownership of a church by a monarch is not wholly extraordinary in those societies either.

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There’s a project that is an opt-in governing of Stormwind’s Laws if you want to take a look at that.

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The only “Simple” thing about Cathedral drama is that it will NEVER be “Simple”.

Whatever real-world principle you may call upon for inspiration is instantly obliterated the moment a 2nd Pally/Priest invites dissenting opinion (Usually an attempt to play diplomat, mediating the drama) against the Holy character trying to protect the Sanctity of the Cathedral.

and opting-in to any Lawful community’ doesn’t solve the issue because 100% of the time the drama happens externally of any lawful community.

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my made up authority is higher than your made up authority, and i say the cathedral of light must now be used as a den of sin for being bisexual, eating hot chip, and lying

edit: i am the new archbishop and no dont tell me a troll cant be one when we compare the prior archbishops and what they were

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End of the day this idea would require a person/group to RP ownership of the Cathedral. Which to me at least would be a form of powergaming. You’d say it’s ridiculous if a person or group of people in Stormwind said they owned one of the taverns and enforced their own rules in an open RP space. The same is true here.

End of the day the Cathedral is in Stormwind. If you want to have holy RP and not have it disrupted every day by cringe Warlocks and Shadow Monsters, organize it somewhere else. The largest RP spot for Alliance on the server isn’t a place you’ll be able to enforce anything. Nor should you.

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this is too complicated

politely inform someone that what they’re doing doesn’t make a lot of sense (to you) and that you’re not interested in the narrative as it currently is

if they adapt accordingly, cool. if not, also cool. you’re either having fun together or spending your time more wisely apart

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Demon and undead summonings would be more interesting than that guild that would do their church rituals of whipping and torture to the open public.

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Wait. Flagellation is a thing in SW? Right in front of people’s salads?

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Was for a bit when there was that random latin name/Warhammer guild in public eyes.

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It was me. I was the hooligan. And I was there just to take a screenshot when a friend showed up and decided to play it out to see how it went. I have never and will never accept people who RP positions of made up authority. Or else I can just say I’m the right hand woman of Anduin himself, he told me I can do whatever I want.

In game wise while your character may have been the highlord of the silver hand as well as multiple other extremely generous titles, it’s silly to RP anything of the sort. As one, you have absolutely no way to back it up other than ooc arguing, and there can’t be a million of these people around.

You’re a paladin. Cool. You’re not some boss of all paladins walking around with the authority to make arrests on alliance grounds. As a future priest I hope you do understand the same, you cannot make arrests, you will have to call the police, the actual police, who will then take the matter into their hands.

Lets also not pretend that you didn’t just come up and insert yourself into the RP, no one targetted you or even interacted with you. You -chose- to join. Which is fine. But if you don’t like how it went, leave.

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And I was the friend. We were having nice little interaction between friends. Having a giggle. I don’t approve of you interjecting into our fun.

It was actually quite cringe tbh. We did not approve of your interaction, and now nor will ever.

Next time keep it to yourself. Thanks.

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absolutely not surprising a paladin got told off and wrote a whole forum post about it lmao

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So wait, was this the guy that opened a void rift and appeared in the cathedral, or was this an entirely different scene?