The OP is referring to end game for casuals within the context of mythic plus, so I’m assuming we’re talking about players who are above warfronts and world quests in terms of skill and below 7/ heroic raid. 30% added to mechanic that deals 10% now does 13%. So still nothing.
And you definitely shouldn’t balance the game around the lowest common denominator.
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Have you had your more casual/less skilled players try using deadly boss mods? It’s a lot easier to know what spells need to be interrupted and when, and when not to stand in fire when you have an app shouting “CASTING XXX - INTERRUPT” or “BAD UNDER YOU - MOVE” in the middle of your screen.
Other than that, all you can really do is practice. Take it one step at a time. If your group is failing because someone’s not interrupting the right spells – take a minute. Make sure that person knows the name of the spell they’re supposed to interrupt. Have them make a note. Keep it in front of them. “INTERRUPT XXX.” Have that player focus on absolutely nothing else. Interrupting XXX is their goal for the run. Eventually, they’ll get better at interrupting that one thing. Do more runs. Have them focus on the next thing that’s giving them trouble. Not everything all at once. When they’ve mastered that, doing these things become second nature.
When I started doing these things, my one goal was not to die to mechanics. And I did. Way too much. I asked questions and read stuff on the internet. I did more of the dungeons. Tons. Eventually, I got pretty good at not dying and performing my role.
But I wasn’t doing interrupts. I had DBM, so I’d see the messages about what to interrupt. I just couldn’t pull it off in time, because I’d usually just be trying my best to hit things, do my rotation properly, and… not die. Did more dungeons. Tons of times. Wiped a lot. Eventually, people would yell at the group. “NEED TO INTERRUPT XXX, or we wipe.” At which point, I’d watch the nameplates to see who was casting what was wiping us, and I’d stick to that mob from the start of the fight and make it my sole mission in life to make sure that spell didn’t get off again. Did a TON of more dungeons. Eventually, I got really good at interrupting the right spells, and not interrupting the wrong spells.
Then I struggled with affixes. You see where I’m going with this?
My advice is to figure out what’s giving your group problems, and pick one manageable task for a person to focus on improving in each run. Run a bunch of dungeons, all week with that person. If Bob keeps standing in fire, and Jim isn’t interrupting, do as many dungeons as you can and assign tasks. Bob’s only job in this dungeon is not to stand in fire. Jim’s only job is to interrupt xxx. Perhaps you’ll wipe because those folks are dying to other things, but if they can get the hang of that one thing they’re not doing, eventually, it’ll become second nature. Then move on to another thing.
Use a voice program too. You can remind these folks in real time.
Mark your targets for them. “Bob, diamond is gonna cast XXX. That’ll wipe us. Interrupt diamond when it casts XXX.”
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I agree with the rest of your post but this is simply not true. People have been carried through raid content since WoW was launched. Item level never meant anything.
What’s changed with M+ is that you can’t afford to take a risk on anyone. Hence raiderio.
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Who should be doing M+2 then?
That’s the issue here in a nutshell. What type of players do you envision are the target audience for low level M+ keys? It’s certainly not the players who are clearing +13s in time. Those players have probably not done a +2/+3 key since week 1 of the expansion.
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In my experience running low keys, by far the most common reason that groups fail is simply pulling extra packs of mobs by accident. Low level players do this constantly and M+ trash is simply too dangerous this expansion to allow anyone to recover from such an error.
Someone needs to make a mod for that.
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Hmm.
If it’s not your tank, try having the entire group just literally stand on the tank most of the time. Whenever I struggled with walking into things and doing unintentional pulls, I just started standing on the people that knew where to stand.
Again, using voice helps. If you keep an eye on the folks that tend to do this, just give them some gentle reminders during the run. “Okay, Bob, you accidentally pulled those guys over there (use a raid marker to illustrate where) – so make sure you step where I step.” Then show him before he moves. Then practice.
Bear in mind, I’m working with the assumption that everyone who plays this game can get better at it with practice.
In my experience, the folks that aren’t good at Mythic + simply aren’t doing enough of it, and aren’t taking the time to figure out what they’re doing wrong when things do go wrong.
IMO, it’s the people who want to get into mythic+ but don’t have any real game knowledge. Not completing a 2 in time gives you another 2. When you can complete the 2 in time, you get the 3 or 4. Ideally, we’d all be running our own keys which would indicate our current level.
Would be nice if (assuming I have a 2) I ran a 3 and my key upgraded with the one that was used or at lest to the level of dungeon I just ran since I’ll be getting that level key in the chest anyway. Doesn’t have the change the zone or anything. But if my key is a 10 and I time an 11, it would be nice if my key went to 11.
That puts everyone in a position to benefit from a successful run.
I couldnt disagree more with this post.
Casuals have it better now than ever before. All content is available on vastly different skill levels and high level gear rains from the skys on the daily.
BFA dungeons do in fact take a lower amount of time to complete on average than Legion dungeons.
The ilvl rewarded from Dungeons is correct. The FREE afk loot handed out to everyone is what the real problem is. People literally do NOTHING and get 400ilvl rewards for logging in. So it comes to putting in actual effort for +10s it will most certainly not seem worth it.
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Blizzard has more than enough “participation awards”, to award you endgame content and endgame gear and end game experiences for just showing up cheapens the whole experience for everyone else that has put a little more effort in the game. Even casual players can raid and do high mythic keys.
Perhaps a little effort “re-tooling” guild mates and giving them a better skill set is a more feasible way to enjoy content. Spell prioritization, learning when and where to use CC, learning not to solely rely on the keyboard for turning and movement, hold some keybind classes to avoid clicking on core abilities, retrain guildies to recognize mobs that need immediate attention.
The raider.i.o system exist because gear is very easy to get, ilvl can easily be inflated to irrelevant numbers. To this day there are people chasing ilvl, blizzard said ilvl would mean something, it doesn’t mean much, when I have to equip gear 10 sometimes 20 ilvls lower to get more output. Raider i.o. exists to put a value on player skill cap (which is a very real thing, and the reason so many classes have been watered down to 3 to 4 button specs, casuals were just not skilled enough to play whack-a-mole with more than 4 buttons, while turning and running with ASDW.)
Yes, it happens this expansion a lot, raider i.o. is used to filter out players of lower skill cap and knowledge to make the experience for the more dedicated player a little less frustrating.
Do you know how infuriating it is to invite a high ilvl tank to a group, start the M+; only to have them bail on the group because they have no idea what they are doing? In the process consuming 4 other people time and reducing a M+ keys value?
Still to this day i hear “oh I don’t do LFR”, then they come in the raid and want 50 million explanation about the enemy at hand, and can’t DPS thier way out of a wet paper bag because they don;t know what portions of the fight to use their abilities on.
There is a lot of nuance in the game, tuning the game around a small subset of the population makes no sense.
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He’s talking about +2,not +8. You know,casual friends hanging out,having fun,running dungeons.You’r statement about his guildies not being very good at M+ was just repeating what he said.They aren’t. But they used to have fun anyway,now they don’t.
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The small subset of the population is the players of higher skill cap not lower.
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Actually it’s quite the opposite, the term “casual” is an extremely overused term that is supposed to in its purest form mean a little bit of everything with no real goal. From, real world experience, there are many different subsets within the term casual if you are using it to describe everyone else playing less than 40 hours a week and half way in the progression mark in the current tier of mythic raid.
In other words, this is more of a “your casual is not my kind of casual; kind of thing”
So the truly, truly casual gamer is actually very hard to run into in game, matter a fact, they are so rare I will sometimes spend a few hours myself just dragging them feet first though higher tier content; when i run into them. I can usually spot them from their behavior, hesitation before each pull, they want to have a conversation about every mob, they wait for the healer to get 100% mana, a 5 min Freehold Mythic will seem like we just conquered all of Azeroth to them.
So when I tell you it is a very small subset of what casual truly means, it is a small subset of the population. They catch your attention as soon as you see them, not out of spite or I want them out, but I remember the time when I was them, that was almost 15 years ago. Last expansion I dragged most of the members of a truly casual guild through Heroic Argus, 3 to 4 of them a week at a time, but we did it because we could, and no one really needed the gear, everybody was after that darn elusive legendary trinket.
I think the core of the problems this expansion is the same one that arose in WOD, where people kinda zoned into their own little kingdoms and forgot there were other players out there. I can tell you the lack of social interaction in the PVE environment is near zero in BFA. Meanwhile on WPVP, beer is poured, songs are sung, and there is always something funny happening due to faction pettiness.
With all that said, the O.P. is casual… but so am I, and my guild, just different spectrums of casual, the O.P.s’ version of casual is much rarer.
i really think as a community we need to come up with some kind of sorting system for the types of casual and types of hardcore and types of mythic and types of PVP.
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Super well said and thought out. Spot on too. You Sir are a champion. I only disagree on dungeon mechanics difficulty. I only tank, as well, and wish they were all as hard as that “first time” in Magisters Terrace. Or Heigans dance through a whole run xD! It would be the dungeon grinders version of progression.
Wish I could find a guild like Yours on Arthas horde. Touche ![:+1:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/+1.png?v=6" ":+1:")
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There are already try hard casuals and no try casuals. Try hard casuals clear heroic within a couple weeks to a month. No trys stick to lfr.
I think some of your criticisms are valid, such as the excessive use of mechanics in BFA dungeons, however, not your criticisms regarding mythic+ gearing.
Mythic+10, when accounting for more opportunities for warforging and titanforging, provides Mythic raiding gear, but seemed to be substantially easier than Mythic raiding in 8.0 given the preponderance of people getting gear from M+ relative to M raiding. In 8.1 it’s even worse, since they boosted the rewards by 30 ilvl but boosted the difficulty only by about half that. If anything, you shouldn’t be seeing 410-415 gear in M+ until +15 or so, instead of +10.
I think what you’re seeing with respect to gearing is that there is too much good gear coming out of war fronts and emissaries. When you’re getting Heroic gear from war fronts with less than Raid Finder level difficulty - “welfare” gear - obviously other sources of gear are going to pale by comparison.
The solution should not be to turn Mythic+ into another source of welfare gear.
No, it doesn’t. It provides heroic level raiding gear. Why lie?
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I believe he’s saying that Mythic 10+ gear that forges is equal to Mythic raiding gear. Which is true. Seen quite a few 420 drops from 10+ keys.
And the 410 weekly pieces aren’t too far off the 415 Mythic ones.
Mythic + can get you you Mythic raid level gear. I got to 385+ ilvl in season 1 doing Mythic + before doing any Mythic raiding, and I started late in the season. I imagine I’ll get this guy to 415 or close before doing any Mythic BoD, just from weekly 410s and lucky forges.
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Mythic raiding gear can also forge. So no, the gear that drops from +10 is not equivalent to mythic raid gear. It’s equivalent to heroic raid gear, end of story.
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Fair point. But a player who only does Mythic 10+ and gets lucky with forges can outgear a Mythic raider who does not. And given that you can spam Mythic 10+ as often as you can, while being limited to one raid drop a week, you have a better chance of getting forges from Mythic +.
I didn’t say the gear was equal. I was saying that players who push Mythic + and get lucky can achieve levels of gear similar to Mythic raiders. So in that sense, the two are sort of equal as a means of getting “end game” gear.