Yeah of course, you’re preaching to the choir here.
I mean this is what the thread is about. A 9 isn’t much easier than a 10. There used to be a big gap in diffulty, now there’s not. The big gap in difficulty now exists between M0 and M2, or M3-M4 depending on affix. And that’s the kind of low level M+ that are probably too difficult for their intended audience.
A big part of this is the imbalance in difficulty of level 4 affixes. Bolstering and Bursting especially make low level keys an absolute nightmare. If it was up to me, I’d swap those 2 with the level 7 affixes Skittish and Volcanic which are much simpler mechanially and easier to understand.
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They ought to have skittish all the time, so people learn how to deal with threat. It used to be you had to deal with threat in leveling dungeons; it can’t be too hard to include in all M+.
A big part of this is the imbalance in difficulty of level 4 affixes. Bolstering and Bursting especially make low level keys an absolute nightmare.
I agree bursting is difficult to handle, but bolstering isn’t bad, it’s just about doing even dps. The issue with moving those to 7 affix would be that then it has a potential of compounding with Teeming, which would be absolute hell.
I see you’ve never had the pleasure of running with a tank who didn’t understand bolstering then.
Bolstering also turns any accidental overpull into a guaranteed wipe, which is why Motherlode is the least successful dungeon every bolstering week (only 1% of Motherlodes were finished in time last bolstering week). And pulling extra trash by accident is a fact of life in low keys.
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I am the tank =p.
Yes, bolstering can go very wrong very quick, but the correct method of handling is isn’t difficult. It may take some amount of coordination, but the skill level required is very low.
Skillwise I agree, the issue with bolstering is people just plain don’t understand it, or don’t even notice that it’s happening. I see tanks in low level keys chain pulling on bolstering week all the time, as if they don’t even know bolstering exists. I see tanks charging into packs with 4 nonelites and 1 elite miniboss and bolstering the miniboss to 4 in a couple of global cooldowns. At that level they just have no idea what the affix even does.
But yes I can see how you would think bolstering isn’t a problem if you’re always the one tanking. It’s really not an issue if your tank knows what they are doing. But a lot don’t.
True, but moving it from 4 to 7 doesn’t make an uneducated group magically educated about the affix. Also you’ll get some very annoying potential affixes combos, like teeming bolstering.
Not necessarily, affix combos aren’t random and they don’t all appear together. You never get teeming/necrotic, raging/grievous or bolstering/sanguine together for example.
The combinations are fixed and on a set rotation. There are only 12 actual combinations out of a possible 30.
Fair, but that still doesn’t address the other point, which is clueless people are still going to be clueless at 7+ keys.
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Sure, but at least it would give them levels 2-6 in which to be clueless instead of only levels 2-3.
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I usually hold the opinion that the amount of work you put in should determine the reward you get. If they can’t figure out the simplest mechanics, they don’t deserve the reward of higher keys.
You could make the same argument about the difficulty of any content and use it justify removing say LFR or Normal mode raiding (as many have tried to do).
The point of the OP and this thread in general is that M+ scales infinitely so there’s no real reason for the lower levels to be so difficult that lower skilled players have nowhere to go.
In legion those players played happily in the 2-9 range, in BFA those same players are struggling at anything 4 or over.
Really I’m just saying that the learning curve shouldn’t get so steep so early.
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I wouldn’t call 4-6 “higher keys”. The learning curve is quite steep now, with affixes starting immediately, when lots of DPS are still playing like leveling dungeons and heroics, for example pulling extra groups intentionally and unintentionally. I get blamed a lot for “not holding aggro” when that happens.
Yes, I need to learn pull sequences that minimize the risk for clueless people to pull extra groups, but you need more than a couple of M+ levels to learn that in all dungeons.
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I don’t know. Anything 5 and under is pretty easy imo. I am also part of a casual guild. We have players that range from kinda bad to pretty good. I feel like I am just an average player or maybe a little above average.
I am also one of two tanks in our guild. We raid two nights a week. Got through normal bod for the first time last week and we are working on conclave heroic currently. Depending on the group and affixes we can push around a 10 key but usually don’t time it unless we have all our best players. Normally we stick to around a 7 to 9 key. That’s a little background on where my guild is.
Saying that, I feel like just about anyone can do the 2 and 3 keys you spoke about if they try. Half the time, I am the only one in my group doing any interrupts and we still manage just fine. If as a tank, you know the zone you should do just fine in those 2 and 3 keys. Get some gear and you should be able to do fine in the 4, 5, and 6 keys as well. 7’s is where it will get hard for you IMO because of the added affixes.
All in all, like I said before, I feel like just about anyone can do the lower keys if they put some effort into it. Even if you are bad at your class.
There’s already a place for them to go. It’s normal, heroic, m0, or the plus levels they can already clear.
To this point, get a 6, fail the timer, run the five and get another 6, run that six. That’s exactly what I do in the 11-13 range. I’m not complaining that I should be in 15s…
So this is not my main, my main is a 1600 alliance brewmaster (mainly, although I do also heal) monk.
Last night I joined a +7 underrot on this character, got instantly accepted (was surprised as my ilvl was 368 at the time). The tank and DH were 376 and 371 respectively, had two other sort of higher characters. The tank was an alt, not sure about the DH.
Anyways, we +2ed the key. The other 2 dps leave, we decide to do the +9 atal. Pick up 2 absurd DPS, +2 that one. Lower the temple to a +10 to be safe, +2 that one.
All this is to say that gear is nice but not required. Now, the +9 and +10 keys the other 2 dps were definitely carrying, but the DH and tank were definitely pulling their weight, and I felt quite comfortable healing despite it being grievous. Some pulls were hectic but overall quite smooth.
Skill > everything else. I don’t feel M+ is overtuned, there are just quite a bit of mechanics that need to be dealt with (primarily interrupts). If you think you can barrel through mid key M+ completely ignoring all mechanics, then I’m sorry it’s not the content for you. We shouldn’t be removing mechanics to cater to people that want to stand there, tunnel and dps. That removes the challenge and the enjoyment.
If you want 100% winnable content, heroic dungeons and warfronts are there for you. But, they are subjectively boring because the challenge isn’t there.
Start with the +4-6 range and learn in there. Even if the gear may not be an upgrade, just do it for the learning sake and for the accomplishment of getting a key done.
Edit: Despite what my avatar shows, this monk is 120 and at the time of the +7 underrot was 368 (he got some upgrades in those 3 dungeons). I posted on him so you could verify on raider(dot)io if you were so inclined.
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You’re a 7/9 mythic raider with 1600 io score, of course you aren’t going to find a +7 hard. The point is not everyone is as good as you, how many more +7s do you plan on doing on your alt this expansion, somewhere around zero?
You aren’t the target audience for +7 dungeons and you know that.
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He didn’t say he was the target audience. He started by pointing out that he’s 1600 on his main.
He’s pointing out that the dungeons are doable to a certain point with good execution and not a hard gear check. Until very high keys where gear is a obviously a significant factor, someone’s M+ end game is tied directly to their level of execution.
As others have pointed out, if the level of M+ you’re trying to do is too hard, you either need to get better or settle for a lower level. The problem isn’t with the system as a whole (obviously excluding bugs).
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