Don’t get me wrong, I kind of understand where you’re coming from, and to each his/her own. However, this statement is never something that should be said about a video game. You put in effort and push yourself when taking care of your kids. You put in effort and push yourself at your job, whether that’s to provide for a family or simply better your own life is dependent on the person. You put in effort and push yourself to lose weight, which is gonna improve your life in a myriad of ways, beyond and including health. I’m all for a challenge in my games, but unless you intend to start steaming, you shouldn’t be pushing yourself to play. At that point, the game is just another source of stress to add to the list.
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Exactly. Also, it’s funny how they don’t want to apply that logic to raids. I mean, by that logic, the final boss of any given raid shouldn’t drop loot because you’re clearly able to beat it without the loot, right? In fact, the opposite is how they implemented it. The final three bosses of the raid drop even higher item level gear than the previous ones. This “you do not need good gear to do X content is absolute BS.” It’s not about needing the gear. It’s about the gear making your experience in your preferred content much more pleasant, and that benefit applies across the board, no matter what kind of content you prefer.
Would you be okay with that gear scaling down to current WQ ilvl for instances, world bosses and PVP?
If you want to insist that solo players who cannot or will not do group content should get a sense of increasing power in content they like, such as World Quests, I’m okay with that as long as rewards from their trivial, impossible to fail solo content has zero impact on the meaningfulness of rewards from challenging group content.
Why discriminate? Because WoW is and always will be a multiplayer game that has, does and should always keep challenging group content at its apex. If solo players cannot accept that, then I want to actively make the game harsher on solo players just so they stop their endless creeping demands.
An hour a day lol. You shouldn’t be playing an MMO in general
As a casual, what do you want out of the game? Playing only an hour a day (that’s pretty much me too. Just got my first level 60), I’m pretty much here to level all my alts, gear up with the easiest content I can, and generally have fun. No Raiding or Guilds, or having to min/max for me.
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I didn’t read all 600 replies, so take this as you will…
…I’m a casual, all I look to get out of the game is fun. That’s it.
I do some dungeons, a mythic here or there, I LFR, some BGs. World quests. I get to play an hour a day mostly, more on weekends.
Don’t care about maxxing my item level or raid progression. I just play to have fun.
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Given that. Heres the big problem i want you and me to work out as a team (me, from my total non LFG universe, and you, from youre presumptive LFG universe).
Right now as i see it, this is the current gear distribution in game up to 9.1 launch:
Mythic raider/glad arena: 230? Fair? I mean right now, no. But over the course of the patch, somewhere around 230 give or take +2Ilvls.
Heroic raiders/Mythic +14. Somewhere in the region of 223ish? Theyre on the ladder. They can get a few spots from early mythic kills. Im pretty sure they get 220 gear in vault. So lets say 223ish (with a slightly increased margin of error - lets say 3ilvls).
Mythic dungeoneers +10 +general conquest. hmmm… 215-220? Not quite there. Not quite utterly behind. Probably a fair few 220 items and a decent (probs 235) lego to boost things. But kind of approaching that margin of error above, if not completely within it. Likely, if progressive minded in 220ish gear.
Normal raiders/weekly conquest heroes/mythic pre 10: Arguably 210-215. Variance obviously widens a bit (with legos and more sources of gear - a la world quests to fill spots). That seems like the sweet spot youd expect around early march when 9.1 drops. Maybe right now, low 200s. But that vault though… with all them choices, over the next 8 weeks. Slots are going to be filled, right?
Thats a fair assessment so far right, and i warn you, im going to make a bit of a stink in a minute so seriously consider my assessment and decide if its realistic…
Now we come to the non-lfg player. Likely sitting around 180. Maybe mid 180s. But this is about march 1st! So with covenant gear buffed to around 197, a fairly decent lego (lets say 225, that outlay is expensive yo!), some world quest drops (lets say two or three reasonably - ive got one right now 4 weeks post world boss killing), a conquest piece to fill a slot from BG weeklies (200 cq/week not including arena because reasons (some love it, most casuals wont even touch it)). So realistically, just before 9.1 drops any player keeping up with their weeklies should be around 200ilvl. Again (without remotely touching even a mythic 0) should be, give or take 3-5 ilvls around 200ilvl.
This is super fair. I want that pointed out before i continue. I mean, i loath the mechanism behind it (do your (3 hour) weeklies, heres a boost!), but its reasonable. If they want to genuinely progress they should be in gear that allows them to list their key for anything between a mythic zero and a +6ish? They SHOULD have reasonable chance of success and they SHOULD be able to find players in LFG. And once they do that, well, whats stopping them doing a 7… an 8… a 10… an heroic raid? This path is clear.
Im not remotely disputing any of this.
But… traditionally they dont touch LFG. Why? Who knows (i know, its toxic af. But lets play ignorant… ‘who knows?’).
Lets pretend they dont touch it… Lets pretend they completely fail to see the blindingly obvious progression path in front of them.
I want to ask this one dumb question:
What ilvl gear should they have in game that both encourages them to keep playing the game, whilst not breaking the hierarchy of rewards? Even if you believe in the mythology of the ‘ladder’. What is a fair and reasonable ilvl the designers of this game can give to casual non-lfg players that would a) make them feel like paying a sub to this game was valuable and keep them logging in; b) not break end game… ‘feelings’ (i suppose); and c) help (incidentally) players looking to break out of the casual game and into the hardcore game?
I ask because i want us to get to the bottom of this. Right now it seems incredibly unrewarding once after next weeks boost. So there has to be a middle ground, right? Should it be 30 ilvls (recall, we arent in 480 gear (plus corruption perks) any more, so this is proportional), below the top level? 25 below the intermediate level. 15 levels below the absolute basic level of ‘true end game?’ Is there a space between those levels and a progression model that might perhaps encourage those players to perhaps ‘get with the program and be more progression minded’?
Or we just gonna leave them dissatisfied and unsub? What is the fair and correct and non-gamebreaking balance we COULD strike here?
(adlib: feel free to ignore, but as a super casual, i see that wall right in front of my face. Its literally game breaking to me. If i dont lfg im treading water. (and If i do lfg im at the behest of endless rising expectations and catch 22 loops - you need the achievement/rio to get invited. You need the invitation to get the achievement/rio score.)). So whats the middle ground here? I want you to genuinely understand, i did this in WoD. I saw it go down (pre rio, with people demanding higher level than any drops in the raid then back-tracking that pugs were ‘farm raids’. This will happen again).
So what is the avenue to move people from the hardcore casual game to the hardcore real game? This is super important. Because the last time players faced this issue, guilds en masse decamped. And you all need to understand that. Raiding guilds literally moved to servers where they could find enough players to fill their rosters. This isnt a successful model. But they will do it again. And you will, as a casual player on a dead end server not only face a brick wall, but also a progression limit based on your spec, then class, then faction, and finally, your server. So how do we expand this pool instead of the game seemingly trying to constrict it by limiting progression without first having already stepped on the ‘actual’ ladder of progression? My genuine feeling is that it will happen again.
Perhaps then, theres a goldilocks space somewhere between ilvl 200 and 215 that encourages players to engage with the actual end game. What is it? How can we get players there? Should we even get players there? You may not even agree. But im curious to see how you respond to this problem (or why you dont see it is a problem).
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Whelp… I got a 197 upgrade for my monk from my calling quest yesterday… seems pretty casual friendly to me.
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I think it’s fine to play it that much. It’s not fine to play it that much and expect that you’re going to make significant progress when it’s also aimed at players who play well more than that…
PS. If you say ‘join a guild’, you need a slap.
If i could say one thing that would honestly help (preach: drama time nothwinstanding) casual players move from the bs end game to the actual end game its this: Look on your realm forums. FInd a guild that appeals to you. App. Suck at the trial. Turn up on time fully prepped to at least 5 raids. End up an officer (because the last healing officer couldnt give a feck). Sort them out.
Guilds SHOULD be the cornerstone of wow. The game SHOULD (i believe this) shower them with petals wherever they go. It doesnt so you have to find them yourself COMPLETELY out of game (because any IN-GAME invite is from a cesspool guild).
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I’m a casual. I only play 5 to 15 hours per week spread out. I’ve never set foot in a mythic plus or a raid beyond LFR.
After next week, I’ll have all 197 plus gear from doing nothing but covenant, WQs, a very light amount of LFR and mostly losing in BGs.
As for the maw, I stick to campaign and weekly quests only. Doesn’t take long. I run both wings of torghast. I’ve done as high as layer 6, but do layer3 if I’m pressed for time.
After the 9th chapter of the campaign is done next week and I upgrade the last of my gear to 197, I won’t have much to do but farm anima and renown.
It may not be the most casual friendly xpac, but it’s certainly doable as someone without a lot of time to play. I’m proof of that.
heck I remember when guilds would have their own sites, one guild that will always stick with me is strength in honor/honour on medivh.
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Please… solo players, please… if you want to break into the real game… please, for the love of jebus, dont pug. Thats my core message. Just go to your realm forums, find a guild, and app. Pugging isnt your vehicle. Sure, pug on the side. But if thats your main path of progression, you will hate this game. Guilds are the core of this game. They always have been, even if theyre currently underground (because of the big dumb incentives cata brought to try and incentivize players to join them - typical blizzard unintended consequences). Guilds are the absolute core of this game. And theyre so fluffy beyond what you think or expect.
Wanna raid and hate your life (and the game)? Pug. Wanna raid and actually have fun doing it? Dont pug.
(i cant believe i gave bhootam such a clear out like this!)
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Obviously you completely neglected to read the rest of that post if you had to ask that. Game rewards are for fun. This isn’t a meritocracy. It’s a freaking video game. It’s not a job or a professional sporting event. It’s a pay to play game, and I have trouble respecting those who treat it otherwise.
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This is the core issue, and it has been front and center ever since Blizzard decided they wanted to turn their video game into a meritocracy that caters primarily to e-sports professionals and streamers.
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I’ve played this expansion for about 16-20 hours total and maxed out my level and have a full set of rank 1 pvp gear. I think you may just be coming at this in the wrong way. Just go farm up some honor and then buy a weapon (158). As for heroics / mythics / raids, I have no idea yet. I’m definitely casual though in comparison to anyone else and I get the feeling we may be on the same level in terms of whats going on.
Truth of the matter is, I’m right there with you in terms of realizing this game has insane requirements of time to get anywhere in comparison to any single player. Sadly, thats just the MMO genre in a nutshell. I recommend either moving on or accepting that you and I will always be undergeared / underpowered without spending gratuitous amounts of time grinding and earning spots at the top.
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all you should have is lvl 60’s EVERYTHING you grind and craft will be USELESS and inactive next xpac so when you hit max (and get weaker) just stop and go make another 60,the rest is pointless (I WANT YOU TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS).
Exactly. These 1 hour a day casuals want to have there cake and eat it too. Well it’s an MMO. End Game isn’t design for you
??
I’m a casual player and it was stupid easy to get a 184 weapon from honor just by doing battlegrounds.
Oh you want best in slot, proper stats for your class and do not want to step in to PvP for PvE?
Well then you may need to do Mythic dungeons. Even one Mythic 0 doesn’t take more than 40 mins. Or LFR.
Well then, what is for them then? All the stuff leading up to end game takes less than a week now! Your statement held up back when leveling was a months-long journey, but that hasn’t been the case for quite some time now.
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