Casual Players have no chance with this expansion

I’m in the same boat. I usually have more than an hour to play but I agree. I still have fun with Torghast but wish there were other rewards to run more than once a week. I wanted to PvP this expansion but I will never be able to keep up with the gear to not get owned every fight (and I don’t do rated stuff). The Maw is also way too difficult for me so I generally avoid that place. I also don’t like the disjointed / not connected world. I never thought I’d say this, as I always hated flying threads, but I just wish I could use my flying mount.

I am getting old so I guess I want a more relaxed gameplay so I’ve gone back to doing old world achievements and I’ve been having a lot of fun with it.

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Im so confused by this. That definition you gave never existed. You seem to mention classic a lot, so im curious if you actually played vanilla. NOT CLASSIC (which is meta’d out the whazoo) but vanilla. With all its keyboard turners, its button clickers, its social guilds, the level 60s hanging around deadmines and randomly boosting players through purely because they were bored and not because they were selling a boost. The unoptimised vanilla where you could pretend to be a resto druid but secretly went full feral with a few resto spells and no one could armory you to check. And unless you were doing hardcore raiding, no one really even cared enough to look at the logs and find you didnt actually cast an innervate.

The casual playerbase in that game was HUGE (if only because the true meta gamers - the real hardcore - was so small).
Dont you remember the hardcore v casual bun fights on the forums at the time? It wasnt about time played metrics. It never was. It was about the content you did and the level you engaged in. Casuals werent serious. Wow was very serious business. Casuals were hindering progress, were too dumb to work out synergies, were too lazy, they were entitled spoiled babies who wanted everything handed to them.

As it was, thus it shall forever be.

You seem to struggle to understand what a casual player is or wants. So let me explain:

All that stuff youve hated or felt to be annoying or a chore or an egregious barrier to doing the things you want to do (raiding), is all the stuff i love.

I MISS, get this, taking 3 months to level to 60. I MISS taking two weeks to level to 70. Even wrath had a decent time to ding 80. I like doing pointless busy work like rep grinding pathfinder, or farming allied races or working on my legendary ring. I like that stuff. Im out and about in the world doing other stuff AND working on it at the same time. I didnt hate titanforging, i liked it. I dont mind broken specs or items, i like them. I dont really want a balance, homogenised game. I enjoy stupid stuff that makes me go ‘oooh! how did they do that!’ I found it hilarious when windfury procced off itself and two or three shammies could hold the entire alliance army at the bottleneck in frostwolf. Azerite power never bothered me in the slightest. I just playe my game at my own pace and the thing magically leveled up all by itself. In fact, i LIKED unlocking those rings. It was enormously satisfying. I like covenants being locked. My rogue is an ardenweald rogue. I DO feel the covenant fantasy despite being told ‘its ONE BUTTON, one button is not a fantasy!’

What else annoys you guys? I love lfr! It saved raiding. I think mythic plus was better in wod. Id like to have the alpha torghast, and no, i dont want stupid artificial barriers like timers or torments to make it ‘meaningful’. I like RNG. I like that legion went crazy with it. I couldnt care less if mythic plus 15s or 20s outgear raid gear. If raiding is so good, people will raid. If max gear is the incentive though… well, maybe it deserves to be abandoned.

Thats about it, no? What you want in the game, is usually not what i want. Or what you see as an outrageous burden is usually something fun for me.

“But ipps! you just want a broken game!”

You’re right. I do. I want the game i fell in love with in vanilla. Sue me.

“But ipps! Go play classic then!”

Its not the same. Players have optimised the fun out of it. Its been hard meta’d. (You have no idea the crushing disappointment i felt watching 4 aoe and a pally round up everything in scarlet monastery, burn it down, and repeat the process over and over and over again).

“Then go do your world stuff! Stop complaining!”

And now we come to the meat and potatoes of the issue.
What little content there is in world is heavily systematised, on rails, and so lacking in adventure and chaos, (because meta gamers would exploit it and/or complain about the ‘busy work’) that its hard to really engage with it any more.

Wheres my random lego’s dropping like in legion? No, no, thats unfair! We’ve made them targetable. Just run this same thing over and over again to collect soul ash and you can pick the one you like!
Okay… wheres my heart dropping into my stomach every time i see a horde player in the world? No no, ipps. Dont worry, you can just switch off warmode. Feel free to do your quest in a completely optimised and undisturbed manner. But i specifically rolled on a pvp server! Then turn it on, silly!

Fine! But wheres the joy of random loot drops? No no, dont worry dude, just get to this renown level and your anima pool from these callings you did will immediately boost your item level. We’ve made it so much simpler and efficient! You dont even need to go into the world for gear any more. Just do your callings and every week or two you’ll get a brand new reward! We’ve made it so much better for you!

I… suppose! Look, im struggling blizz. Wheres my pathfinder rep list so i can at least get to work on that? Again, ipps, my spacegoat! Chill! We’re not doing that this time. Its going to be much easier this time! Just work on that renown. Boof! Youre all set.

I think wittgenstein said it best:

“We have got onto slippery ice where there is no friction and so in a certain sense the conditions are ideal, but also, just because of that, we are unable to walk. We want to walk so we need friction. Back to the rough ground !”

‘But ipps! If you want ‘the friction’, just go do arena, mythic plus or raid!’

And there’s the rub! The world game is unsatisfying, overly sanitised, dull and unengaging. The only content that IS engaging and the only game you should be playing in modern wow, (and the content around which all design decisions are being made), is the content ive never had much interest in. And thats why casual players are feeling more alienated by the game than usual. All the streamlining improvements have been heavily systematised to the exclusive benefit of players who dont want to engage with that content. What you love about the game (the real end game), is the stuff ive no real interest in. What you hated about the world game (the grind and the unfairness of rng) is what i love about it.

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Hey, remember wod! Remember when they all came to the genius conclusion that casual players didnt really like doing all the world stuff in game, so why not just give them “PLAYER HOUSING” and fill it with mines and farms and collectable stuff so they could log in, do their mini grinds quickly and log off. On top of that, lets give them a mission table so they can get rewards even when theyre not playing the game.

Remember that! Remember when players just stopped playing the game and blizzard had to dramatically cut the expansion short because they didnt really give anyone anything meaningful to do if they werent raiding?

I dont want to alarm you, but this looks very similar.

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Which would be perfectly fine if this game had anything to offer except for end game content.

By your definition, maybe, but your definition is hardly definitive. You’re conveniently ignoring the fact that prior to Cataclysm, only a small percentage of players raided, by Blizzard’s own admission. What does that tell you? That the game was at it’s peak because of raids? I don’t think so. It tells me that it appealed to casuals because it had far more to offer than just raid raid raid.

Raiding itself is inherently casual by your definition. For example, I spent two and a half hours earlier killing 7 raid bosses and getting a 200 ring. I can completely neglect everything else and get another 200+ piece out of the vault on Tuesday. How is that fair to the non-raider who’s spending an hour a day every day only to get a limited number of pieces that they can upgrade to 184?•

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I think they got some of them back but a heck of a lot of them are botters, just here to earn some gold for when BC happens.

What? Speaking as the most casual of players, this is shaping up as the best expansion in awhile. Lots of toys to collect, time and motivation to level my alts, and enjoyable story…oh, and all the Night Fae cuteness. So yeah.

Remember, you don’t have to do everything in one day. Choose what is most to you important and do that.

This is completely false. You can PvP. Do non stop heroic at the OPs ilvl. LFR. Crafting. Solo low level torgast. There heaps outside max LVL end game content.

Why would a PvEer want to PvP? Why would a player run heroic dungeons for gear that isn’t even as good as the covenant gear that’s handed to you? What is a casual going to do with all that soul ash? You’re kind of making my point for me. Everything the game offers casuals is completely worthless to them.

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I’m sure you have more than an hour to play. If you don’t maybe only play the game a few times a week and have 2-3 hours to play. Make a specific attainable goal for your char in the time you play. If you truly only have 1 hour, that’s about enough time to upgrade 1-2 pieces of gear… maybe. But damn dude, your renown level is 18 and your gear score is in the dumps. So what I’m seeing is that you don’t know how to gear but your doing PVE content like crazy in your allotted time. You do know that in your covenant you can upgrade all that gear you got right from those quests? There’s a vendor that will upgrade your gear… and it costs like nothing. You prob have tons of anima to do it. But like the char I’m on now I’m just starting to level, but I’m an altoholic. I got 4 chars max and get bored and work on 1 for a bit. I just like that. I’m not in a rush

It’s an MMO you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Put in an hour a day that’s the result U get, low content. Don’t cry you don’t get into mythic plus when Ur not putting it the hours others do for the opportunity.
I don’t sit and grind and gear share heroic now runs for potential mythic raid readyness others do . So I don’t expect to be invited to a mythic raid. There’s plenty of content for casual player it’s just not mythic plus or normal plus raiding. That’s for a different effort player. This is why they designed LFR.

Come to Final Fantasy XIV. Its got more and better content updates. Dungeons and raids are focused more on fun and complex and more frequent boss fights instead of just 15 ways to fight endless trash with increasingly higher stats and random rng affixes. The classes are 3x deeper in terms of quality and actually play much differently, and half the game is just based solely around them updating and creating new and fun ways to level alt classes (which can all be played on a single character and you can even choose to only have 1 character ber server for a lower subscription fee).

Its really not just because you are getting old, this game’s design is just total crap. Its like the designers just sit around and see what’s popular on twitch with various games and then build a game around notes they took. Its incredibly pessimistic and anti-social and the content is all super shallow. The classes are of very low quality and the writing is simply dreadful. Its really not just you. This game has fallen way behind in quality against its old self.

In blizzard’s misguided attempt to make EVEN MORE MONEY they actually lost so many subscribers due to their horrible new design decisions and practices. They self-sabotaged.

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That argument works when you’re talking about the upper 5% of the cake, not so much when you’re talking about the middle 60%.

Cutting people off from fulfilling progress two days into their journey with a hundred dangling plot and progression threads is way, way worse than letting them come to master the world over weeks or months and then inviting them to commit to another, even greater challenge.

“It’s an MMO, so your experience should suck from the word go unless you’re committed” is the opposite of how this game was built. The devs from EQ actually worked with Blizzard at points to help them develop WoW, and they saw it was very pointedly trying to attract a casual audience, making things faster and easier to make incremental progress. It was explicitly meant for the 2-hour-a-day crowd, like me at the time.

The EQ team felt relief learning of that design intent, because to them, their much more punishing, commitment-intensive game was what MMOs were about. They were the top dogs of the MMO world, with about 600k subscribers, and their decisions revolved around the philosophy you espouse: no pain, no gain.

WoW, on launch, grabbed a million people or more. And just kept growing from there.

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Everything is on a weekly reset and there are catch-up mechanics in place for when you fall behind.

This is the most casual-friendly expansion we’ve gotten since WoD.

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This. You don’t even have to raid to end up with a full set of tier armor; all you have to do is complete your covenant campaign.

Worst decision they have ever made. I hope they all like taking a pay cut, because there will be no one around to pay their salary pretty soon!

Yeah yeah you’re not geting what you personally want so the sky is falling as usual.

Sadly every factual metric (ie not the General Discussion forums, lol) indicate SL is a resounding success.

Again, you’re completely missing the point and addressing a different thread’s topic. Casuals don’t want to dedicate a solid 2-3 hour block of time to raid. They don’t want to engage in a timed run where having to AFK to deal with a family emergency is going to screw their four buddies out of their reward and downgrade their key.

But you keep parroting, “Mythic+ and Raid!!!” That’s exactly the point of this thread. That’s all the game has to offer, and it doesn’t address the preferences of casual PvE players. “But Torghast!” Torghast is an inferior Diablo mini-game and is laughably unrewarding. Diablo doesn’t require a sub, so why would anyone pay $15 a month for a crappy knock-off?

As Classic demonstrated, casuals are happy to put hours and hours into the game doing things like leveling characters and running untimed dungeons. The modern game, however, cut all of that out of the game as a means of progression in order to fast track everyone straight into hardcore content. Keep your Mythic+ content. Casuals don’t want it.

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If your goal is to just have shiny pixels by playing an hour a day every day by yourself, sure. That’s what Blizzard seems to consider casual. If you actually want to experience hours of fun with your buddies in a forgiving environment that lets one of them AFK to tend to a family emergency, you’re out of luck. Catch up mechanics are actually detrimental to a casual play style because they pretty much eliminate the portion of the game that casual players typically engage with. Contrary to your claim, catch up mechanics are for raiders who show up late to the game. They do nothing for casual players.

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They help casual players do the casual stuff they like to do better/faster.

Kind of like how better gear lets every player do whatever they do better/faster.