I think you’re the type of person who generally sees the cup half empty.
I do agree that Melee play style currently is better, but saying it’s better overall from older iterations is subjective and varies person to person.
Hey with the 10.0.7 rework announced and they fixing button bloat anything can happen to Ret.
But I strongly believe a mid ranged Caster Paladin can work, Evokers are proof that the concept works just for Paladin it definitely needs a few tweaks. Heck Mistweavers are now proof more then anything that 2 completely different play styles can be viable. With the recent buffs Mistweaving has skyrocketed over Fistweaving in a lot of content for the pure HPS it outputs. The trade off a little less damage, but they sort of play the same, you close in for CC and move back to heal. Like a mid ranged healer.
When Blizzard said “wearing plate armour, paladins are on the front lines defending their allies” it summed up their intent and I think succinctly indicated what Paladins should be. Paladins belong in melee, it’s the fantasy that has produced the most success for their ability design.
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I wouldn’t mind if they tinker the holy tree to have holyshock and shockbarrier be the focal point for ranged casting at one side of the tree, the opposite end being melee oriented and the center be spells that are utility focused, instant casts that can benefit either build
the problem is that holy probably needs tools to manage mana or holypower; ranged has a notedly lack of holy power generation by comparison
Like I said, the Melee build should still be there, for those who prefer that class fantasy and most definitely enjoy that play style. But a class having different ways to play isn’t a bad thing. If anything it’s more healthy for the game. Like I mentioned Mistweavers their class fantasy is punching and healing through its damage, similar to current Holy Paladin now.
It’s worked, but they now basically introduced a second play style going back to its original roots and working flawlessly.
Your class fantasy isn’t what other class fantasy is. Back in the day Holy Paladins class fantasy was similar to a DnD Cleric, armoured up support backline, pretty sure it’s original concept was that.
But like I said, it varies person to person. I’m in no means arguing to remove Melee play style I’m saying multiple ways to play a spec is great, caters to everyone who prefers one play style over the other.
Well my original point is that splitting the spec like that dilutes both play styles instead of having one more focused style. I think your Monk analysis is halfway right, we have a couple ways to play. But look deeper into what players are saying about it and not many are happy with Monk healing right now (also it’s the least played healer across all PVE content). It has fractured the spec.
That’s due really to Fistweaving having to constantly be in faeline stomp to actually perform while most mechanics rarely allow you to be static and in melee.
I’m in no ways saying Mistweaver is perfect, but they have the solid foundation to make both specs feel great and their buffs and changes are helping both specs. Even trying to fix Faeline Stomp issue and adding Shelins gift.
My issue with Holy is they have the melee build, which ofcourse can be improved on, but half added a Caster side with no current synergy, literally a small tweak can make both work. Even in Alpha/Beta people were excited for this Caster side to be more fleshed out, heck I was over the moon testing it and gave incredible feedback.
But as usual they said “it’s only alpha/Beta” it will be fixed by launch and now we literally have half our spec tree not used as it caters for an incomplete build.
It’s clear they are trying to incorporate it back in, just what we ended up with is a mess.
My thought process is, I believe 50% of the Paladin Devs like melee and 50% wanted Caster back and this is what we ended up with.
What are you even talking about? Hpal spent multiple expansions as a flash of light spamming tank topper. Get out of here lol
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I don’t get these bros nostalgic for the literal worst healer gameplay. Play priest if you wanna stand at range spamming casts.
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The issue is that Holy Pally is not a true melee healer. It is a healer that requires melee to generate the resource to heal. The actual healing is really through all hard and instant cast spells so it still heals like a caster with some spells requiring you to jump through melee hoops in order to use them. There are a few abilities that you can pick up through talents which are actual healing through melee but not enough to really call the class a true melee healer. So in that regard it’s the reason why people have a problem with the system. In order to heal using the caster spells you have to melee to use some of your abilities.
Seriously think about it, outside of Crusader Strike (that hits like wet toilet paper) forcing us to be in melee for Holy Power Generation, what’s so melee about Holy Paladin?.
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Yes it did, except i think they pressed holy light through vanilla to wrath, classic players can probably confirm. And it was the most boring playstyle ever conceived and most paladins who grew up with it were glad to see it go.
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ret main here.
I never thought offering a caster buil and a melee build was a smart decision. Got to to stick to one or the other. Rather not be a jack of all trade and instead be a master at melee healing, being one of the only two melee healers in wow.
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But how is it a melee healer?, outside of AC which now heals through CS, what’s so melee about Holy Paladin?, literally 90% of our skills are ranged to a degree. From 15 yds to 40yds.
raid mechanics consider it a melee class. Same with MW.
So?, Devastation is considered Range for mechanics, why not Holy Paladins hover at 15 yards?. That isn’t justification anymore. Just means they have to move closer during those mechanics. Just like Mistweavers.
holy paladin shouldn’t need to hover at 15 yards. Our mastery is just trash.
Have you not raided as a Holy Paladin…
Consecration, HoJ, Rebuke, Blinding Light, LoD being more economical when cast in melee (always you and the tank guaranteed plus the fact that there’s generally always melee in your comp) plus a little thing called Mastery. Not sure what you’re getting at?
Our effective damage profile includes a lot of consecrate. Our mastery encourages
a melee position auras used to be more limited. Judgment used to be low range and encouraged auto attacks of seal and judgment of wisdom for mana stability, this is vanilla old so basically our origin point. Our oldest tier sets included strength for auto attack damage even before crusader strike was implemented. I could go on, but you leveled as a melee. The only anomalous full ranged build was some cursed time when they gave us wish dot com wrath as a spell which was quickly rectified by legion.
Light of Dawn just like Dream Breath is all about player positioning and has a 15yd range untalented, theirs even several Holy Paladins clearing 20+ keys and higher using 2h weapons completing avoiding SotR, every competent healer range or not goes into melee for cc, Priests run in for Psychic Scream, we can do the same for Blinding Light and hoj and rebuke.
Especially mentioning rebuke (which I think personally should have a 15yd range), look at Resto Druid no interrupt and clearly miles ahead.
So I have no idea what you are getting at either.
So out of all the skills holy paladins have those are the only skills 4, that justify melee holy Paladin.
“You’re right but I think Blizz should extend those ranges so I can be right” is not an argument. Are you saying Blizz should add a passive healing component to CS and auto attack? Because damn that’s cool, I could be down with that, but it’s not needed.
Also what are you talking about 2h weapons?? Why are you memeing?
Bro just play priest and let us get on with Paladin, you know the spec that’s been just fine being meta almost every season since Legion.
Sorry you just don’t get it I guess?