I’m saying sotr isn’t an excuse, several high IO players are doing fine without it, mentioned Blinding Light, every healer goes into melee as it is now to cc, Evokers run in for tail swipe, wing buffet, Priests most definitely go in for Psychic scream.
You mentioned rebuke, I shown that it’s not 100% necessary especially with the current meta being so melee heavy.
I’m literally pointing out the flaws in your arguement but you don’t seem to understand and just blinded by your personal view.
Imagine seeing one player clear a 20 with a 2h weapon and thinking that’s a basis for the argument that Sotr isn’t required. Unhinged.
Did I say just one? No, several players are achieving high IO and clearing high keys, Raider IO is open to the public if you have time go have a look.
But 4 skills which arguably doesn’t even make you stick in melee as they have long CDs is your justification?.
Out of the whole kit of holy Paladin. You think 4 skills mostly have high CDs, is the reason they should be in melee.
Nah you’re right, enjoy standing at range with your 2h weapon clearing 20 keys. Lmao
I mentioned in other forums to make AC healing passive but have the damage increase and cd reduce of abilities be the cd without it costing 5 holy power. Then tune it for decent healing in passive but great for healing massive damage during cd.
Also make it where Zealot’s Paragon has spec differences where Holy would make HoW heal 1 target.
Ahh no clear response so you make it personal, clearly I’ve gotten my point across.
I like this, I think Blizz are interested in this style too. AC never got touched during SL so it’s good to see them interested in it again. Hope we see more tuning on it, it’s at least sort of competitive right now.
It can easily heal 1 target for x% of damage. Only problem is PVP as I’m sure they don’t like being in melee unless it is forced upon them.
They had blue post in beta saying because some people wanted caster pally back they would add talents for caster. Which is a huge mistake on how it was implemented because the talents are to focused on HL and FoL.
It screwed the potential of melee build/mid range possibilities.
Could it have worked to have both range and melee? Yes, but they needed more choice nodes and passive talents to be more generic for it to work with both.
For range and melee to be separate and to work I think they could have done a experiment where in the middle of the tree you chose between caster and melee(doesn’t cost anything). I’ll just call it a Spec Mastery, where that talent you choose is overloaded but changes abilities. Like caster having a placement for consecration, Holy Light usable on the move, and different IoL compared to melee etc. Melee having a LoTM exclusive or HL being instant with a non rng mechanic etc.
I could go on forever so I’m stopping here.
I disagree actually I think they could make that very fun, but holy paladins damage spells don’t really feel that fun to press because they only do damage or only contribute to holy power and do a small amount of damage.
There is no fun interaction. Harsh words (disc) is a great example of a fun interaction between a damage and healing ability. Every 4 casts of smite it makes your next penance free.
Maybe for hpal they could do something like selfless healer. “every holy power spender lowers the CD of holy light by X amount and increases its healing by 15%, stacks 4 times” or “every Crusader strike cast lowers the cd of holy light by X amount and increases its healing by 5%, stacks up to 10”
They could even turn awakening into something that interacts with a damage ability. Rather than rng, make it “every 3 judgements you get 8 seconds of avenging wrath”.
There is so much they can do to intertwine damage abilities to healing abilities, currently hpal is just pretty messy so that hasn’t happened.
Not quite what I said. But Holy did spend most of Shadowlands and iirc, a good chunk of BfA being one of the most desirable healers in both raids and M+. Clearly, the current model isn’t preventing Holy from “reaching its full potential.” Unless, of course, you define its full potential as “the way Lightvoyager wants it to be…”
Sure, it had its moments back then too. So we can agree that tuning and utility are more critical in being a top-tier healer than manner in which the spec heals, yes?
a) again, this is in no way “objective reality.” Melee-based Holy Paladin has, as a matter of fact, been the top dog in the healing world at times. It’s been in demand for like every world first fight going back for quite a long time. It utterly dominated the end of BfA through SL season 2 in M+. By any reasonably objective way to look at things, melee Holy Paladin has been successful compared to the rest of the healing specs.
b) as to the “Call of Duty action zoomer” thing…yeah, maybe just admit that you’re a boomer and can’t handle the higher APM, proactivity of HoPo management, and requirement of reacting to melee mechanics? I’ll even sympathize with you if that’s the case. But if you’re gonna go all “Fox News Grandma” complaining about the kids these days walking on your lawn and ruining Holy Paladins, I mean…c’mon…
Ah yes, “real healers” being defined as those that agree with you. I see how this works. You can have your preferences, but you don’t get to pretend your preferences are universal or factual.
I play caster hpal and do just fine. Our core issue is one that affects both melee and caster variants: most of our talents suck. My main gripes are a. Holy Light is a little slow and b. Holy Shock desperately needs two charges because overlapping a cast with Shock coming off cooldown feels real bad.
I personally hate melee style healers. If Blizzard deleted caster hpal, then I will just reroll. I can live with hitting Judgement if it has value (it currently does not), but I will not be pressing Crusader Strike or Hammer of Wrath.
Some of us have enjoyed caster paladin since vanilla and getting rid of it would be a huge slap in the face for us. Then again, Blizzard deleted ranged Survival so they’re gonna do what they want to do.
This isn’t meant as a put down but I think at the level you’re playing at you won’t have much to worry about. It’s absolutely true that you’d be a better healer utilising all your abilities, but if you’re having fun and bosses are dying then power to you.
You are telling me my opinion doesn’t matter because I’m not doing cutting edge content. But my fun is just as valid as the fun of a cutting edge player, and you are asking that Blizzard delete what I enjoy because opinions.
Your argument is that caster spec is so bad that it’s flat out non-viable, which is patently false. Furthermore, you argue that the ““correct”” way the spec should be designed is pure melee healer. The talent tree is big enough to accommodate two different playstyles, and if it isn’t then that’s a failure of what the talent trees set out to accomplish in the first place.
The problem is not that all our talents should revolve around melee healing (which would be pointless since you inherently cannot have all talents at once) - our problem is that our talents are just bad. Whether you are melee are range hardly matters. If they took all our caster talents and made them melee healer talents and kept everything else as is, it still would not fix the issue that our whole talent board is undertuned at best and poorly designed at worst.
I think you and I can both agree that paladin talents could and should be better. But to say that a whole playstyle of a spec - the classic playstyle no less - should be trashed because the cutting edge players don’t use it is toxic elitism and doesn’t even address our real core issues.
Blizzard can make hpal a pure melee DPS hybrid healer if they really want (and not even monk, the iconic melee healer, is that way), but if they do I know that I personally will be rerolling because I do not want that.
Sorry, I tried my best to word it but I agree your fun is just as valid as anyone else’s. I don’t mean to belittle your accomplishments.
All I’m saying is that Blizzard could improve the tree, focus on melee healer and you’d still be able to do your content with Holy Light and Flash of Light. You say you don’t use judgement, which means no Judgement of Light and no Empyrean Legacy. You don’t use Crusader Strike, which means no int buff. I assume you’re building HP with holy shock and casting HL on beacons. I think you’d find the spec much the same to play no matter what Blizzard did, because you’re not utilising a lot of it.
I don’t think you’d have much to worry about if Blizz refined the spec, unless they removed Holy Light and FoL completely.
Also saying it’s “the classic playstyle” holds no value. A lot of things that are old are not good just because they are old. In fact a lot of things that are old are bad. Not only that, but melee healer has been the design longer than caster healer ever was at this point, so what’s the real “iconic” playstyle?
But my point still stands that attempting to cater to caster players is diluting both play styles and, personally, I’d rather casting went away. If that means people would rather reroll to a class they’re more comfortable with, like priest, I think that’s also an ok outcome.
What? I don’t think anyone said anythint about your opinions being invalid. And again, I personally don’t care what spec blizz chooses to make dominant, they just need to choose one. Their design ethos right now does nothing but fracture the paladin playerbase and cause animosity both in game and on forums over debating a “correct” way to play the game.
If I were betting though, we likely wont see a hpal change until next expansion. Some fool of a developer will make a tier set bonus that will influence our playstyle one way or another in one of the next two tiers and that will be where the dice land.
I think there’s still hope changes will come, they’ve revamped Druid, changed Mistweaver, Disc Priest and now Ret is coming, if anything it shows they willing to make adjustments to spec trees throughout the expansion.
Previously we only gotten slight tuning changes and big changes being in pre patch, seems like they are more focused now to make changes throughout without waiting.
What are you talking about? It’s called melee because we are literally in with melee. Also, our main large aoe heal is technically melee, it’s a close proximity heal unless you talent into something that increases range.
It’s Harsh Discipline, and the free part is boring. The fun part is that it shoots extra missiles, like Arcane Mage’s Clearcast Arcane Missiles.
Yes, and holy did spend all the time prior to BFA being a top-tier healer. Not sure what is hard to understand about that.
“Had its moments” is being disingenuous and you know it. The spec was fine and would continue to be fine if Blizzard put any effort whatsoever into buffing it back to relevancy. I’m never going to say that let’s just delete the caster spec in favor of the melee spec because Blizzard is too incompetent to fix what it broke post-Legion.
It is though. There is nothing whatsoever that is incorrect about me saying: “caster holy paladin can reclaim its rightful place as god-tier healer if Blizzard stops pandering to the melee people and just doubles down on caster”. That is not an incorrect statement in any way.
Lol, and so was caster paladin pre-BFA. We can do this all day if you want.
So was caster paladin prior to BFA.
Caster paladin would have also had it not been gutted post-Legion by Blizzards own incompetence and not being able to fill the void left by legendary items and artifact weapons. Melee paladin only exists because a theorycrafter discovered a way to squeeze some semblance of healing output out of a gutted spec. If Blizzard was able to fix what it had broken the melee spec would never have been necessary in the first place.
What does this even mean? Are you pretending that the caster build was never dominant? Lol
I most certainly am a 34-year-old boomer who thinks “old gud new bad”
I wouldn’t know. I still play plenty of FPS games and can hit dirty shots like back in the day. I don’t think it has anything to do with reflexes and getting old. I literally just have zero interest in playing a healer that heals by attacking stuff. The very premise is ridiculous to me.
You realize the irony here, yes? I know damn well that my preferences are not necessarily universal/factual…but neither are yours. Deleting my favorite spec from the game in favor of something as abhorrent as a “healer” whose healing output is gated behind melee damage abilities is something I will never support. I hate new disc priest for the exact same reason I hate melee paladin.