It’s obvious at this point for some reason you view M+ as a mistake, with all the stupid changes you’ve made to it so far. In that now keys are going to scale higher this coming expansion. To where a 15 will be a 16.5, and a 20 will be a 22.5, which is outrageously high for the start of a season honestly.
I was okay with max loot being locked at 20, yet also making early keys much harder to do on the start of an expansion is just a bad idea. Along with if your so bent on making people raid, MAKE THE LOOT ACTUALLY WORTH GRINDING FOR, ALONG WITH ACTUALLY MAKE IT PRATICAL YO USE AS A SYSTEM TO GEAR WITH! Raid loot is horrendously slow to obtain, and is why people turned to M+ and PvP loot, stok trying to kill things instead of simply fixing raid loot once and for all.
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This is good, we really needed more threads on this same topic we already have tons of threads for.
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But look on the bright side: people who want to raid will be forced to do M+.
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And the open-world casuals can sit back and enjoy the show.
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I think pretty much all m+ players want this to change. I really hate the raiders have to do M+ in order to gear up faster. I wish they could have some kind of valor system for upgrading and maybe even something like normal and heroic raids can be repeated.
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M+ has been awarding gear out of all proportion to its lack of difficulty, is the thing. It’s being stretched out so that in order to get the top-end stuff, you have to do content that is (theoretically) at least somewhat difficult.
They’re trying to make M+ less of a free ride. That’s a good thing.
And it’s not to force people to raid, they aren’t doing ANYTHING to improve raid gearing. Raiders will still be forced to do M+ in Dragonflight just to get gear TO raid.
And please knock it off with the “they’re doing this to help raiders” stuff, because Blizzard isn’t addressing ANY of the concerns about raiding’s problems, so far, in Dragonflight.
Are they increasing loot drop rates? No.
Are they improving how skips work? No.
Are they making Mythic scale with raid size like all the other difficulties? No.
Are they addressing the issues with raid lockouts? No.
What HAVE they done for raiding in Dragonflight? Oh, there’s harder trash and they moved the BoEs there. Oh goodie.
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the simple fix would just be to fix raid loot but they never do the simple thing always over complicating things. people who switched to mythic+ might actually go back to raiding if you would just let gearing be better in raids but it’s to simple for them.
Because to some extend it’s a mistake but as well it’s good. It pushed people away from raiding, and it created even more toxicity in community
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This seems like a crap change for raiders.
Now they’re forced to run harder keys.
Blasting on eight 15s to load the vault was fine.
Blasting on eight 20s in season 1 with harder scaling for max gear? Eeehhhh, maybe?
I didn’t do much in the way of Mythic this expansion but I have to admit I did notice that gear wise even accounting for the lower Ilvl seemed much nicer in M+. Like trinkets that drop in M+ had far more interesting and useful abilities than most of the stuff from raids And you could keep running that specific dungeon trying for the drops you wanted. Raids are one and done try back next week.
I don’t see how these changes force people to raid in any way. The dungeons might be a bit harder but you can still spam target a specific drop far easier than in a raid.
If only Blizzard would actually do something to improve raid gearing.
But they won’t.
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Every day is tell my self today let’s push some keys and get some gear. And I created my group for low key, finish the dungeon ofc no loot at the end, and already I’m loosing motivation. Then I start another key hoping sure let’s see now and ofc after 25-30 minutes running and doing same thing over and over blah no loot at the end ofc. The I really loose interest in keys and I give up.
Raids on the other hand are different. I can try them once a week, and never have I finished a raid without at least one piece of gear. Like never
That’s the sole reason I don’t like stupid M+ I have to run basically 10 dungeons to get some 1 piece of gear at the end of run, and a stinky choice from vault.
To be fair, mini-bosses that have a 100% chance to drop 1 BoE each week for the raid is a big improvement for the raid coffer. It eliminates degenerate farming maintaining their value as it controls the flow of BoEs while distributing them far better to a wider range of guilds. If there are like 4 or 5 mini-bosses, that’s quite an income stream to offset “raider tax” depending on where these guys are found in the raid as well as a nice source of loot once you’ve filled up the coffer. I would assume once you beat the first boss and maybe a couple gatekeeper bosses you can probably hit up most of the mini-bosses as well. Not exactly sure what that will look like but it could be good.
Think about the distribution of mini-bosses that dropped Stygian Embers in SoD for instance for how Blizzard might distribute mini-bosses. If each of those Stygian-Ember-dropping mini-bosses was instead dropping a BoE, that’s a lot of BoEs and you only need to get less than half-way through the raid (makes reclears pretty profitable/rewarding for the guild).
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Sounds as bad as running an entire raid getting the 4th copy of the same belt you get every week that isn’t an upgrade and few anima tokens then having the same @#$%!! belt show up in the vault along with a cape but you have your legendary in that slot.
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Coupled with skip improvements, so that reclearing wasn’t the all-or-nothing proposition it is now, that might be the case. But alas…
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Yeah, I don’t really know what Blizzard is doing in that respect. I feel like Ion thinks he can squeeze more played-time out of guilds if they make reclears more rewarding without providing skips but most guilds raid on a set schedule so that doesn’t actually work, it just makes guilds that raid less worse off.
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For the record, I would be A-okay with them completely changing the “Keystone” system, as the idea of having to “build up” your key or worry about it depleting is just… not a whole lot of fun.
But yeah, for me M+ is WoW for me now. It’s way more fun, easier to get groups together, and I only have to play with my friends. I find it nearly impossible to find new people to play with (I’m not super talkative in-game, and it requires quite a lot of effort to “make friends” with a guild).
I think the system works beautifully, being able to have a pretty flexible route of getting upgrades, and also fine-tuning your BiS items through upgrading. I think the Vault is okay, although maybe a bit too beneficial.
I like the approach I’ve HEARD Blizz is talking about, having more “special” items that drop in Raids. I think that’s a great approach; it’s not “punishing” people like me, who only enjoy M+. Instead, it simply encourages me to consider Raiding again, to get the “cool sh*t” I’ve long said WoW has been missing for a long time.
Okay that’s fair, and I’ll sit down when I have time and edit the OP. Yet they simply need to fix raid gear period, along with if you want tier sets initially you will have to raid, along with being a decent source of gear early on given how high you have to push keys to access capped gear.
At this point they need to revert the changes and keep it the same it was in shadowlands. These changes are a huge step backwards.
With the lockouts are you talking about how if you’re a guild who has to pug 1-2 players and they drop after they kill a boss they want or get to your prog boss and leave because they just wanted carried effectively screwing over your entire raid night?
These are all things that need work. I’d like to see them make raiding a better experience and far less of a slog.
I’d suggest making noise about these issues on their own accord elsewhere rather than sliding them into M+ threads time and again. Happy to help beat the drum.