Can we fix Survival Please?

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Leokitas-illidan

You’re right, I PVP. It is one of the 3 pillars of gameplay this game provides. How is me bringing up PVP based arguments any different from people constantly bringing up PVE arguments for the other side?

Because your argument of how SV is “pretty much ranged enough” is based on your method of playing the game, and not the actual intent of the design of the spec, in context of the main role of the class as a whole(incl SV). That being a damage dealer. Again, in PvP, dealing damage(at full capacity) isn’t necessarily always a primary focus, in fact, quite often, it isn’t. This when compared to PvE.

Your points of how SV now is similar to the original iterations from Vanilla also fall short, as in Vanilla, the class had range restrictions where you sometimes were forced to make use of certain parts of your toolkit that involve melee. In the modern game, SV is designed for the exact opposite of the above. In Vanilla, the SV category had talents that almost exclusively(when it came to anything melee) focused on allowing you to get back to range, for the purpose of staying alive, while dealing more damage than would ever be possible inside melee range. Now, in the current game, SV has talents almost exclusively designed for you to deal the most damage within melee range, along with talents to get you into melee range of your target. At the same time, any class-wide talents you can get, more or less want for the opposite of that.

@Leokitas-illidan

Please, enlighten me as to the glorious and unmatched gameplay that was ranged SV.
What was it that made it so great when compared to MM or BM?
Black arrow? What was so thematically hunter about that? You invoke thematics like SV was this eye popping visually crazy spec which isn’t true. You shot some arrows. one exploded one was black.

…ignoring the obvious sarcasm and bad-faith arguments.

@Leokitas-illidan

And by the end of DF we will have passed that 8 year mark. Simple enough to see isn’t it?

We’re not there yet, are we? In fact, DF has just started…

Either way

@Leokitas-illidan

AND by the RSV logic it will become historically a “Melee” spec with some time as ranged meaning I guess by RSV standards will become its identity as you all have cried so many times that its identity was historically ranged.

If this is your interpretation of such arguments, you’ve once again missed the point.

@Leokitas-illidan

You’re right. It wasn’t an option.

It was, just not in their minds, or yours…

@Leokitas-illidan

Was it though? really? Maybe to you. Others disagree.

Their arguments:

‘RSV was underdeveloped’ - Okay, even if this was in fact true(it wasn’t), this would’ve fixed itself had they just stuck with the spec for the Legion reworks.

‘RSV was too similar to MM’ - Like above, even if this was in fact true, this would’ve fixed itself had they just stuck with the concept, and developed it with the same philosophies in mind, as with all otehr specs, going into Legion.

‘RSV was missing a niche’ - No it wasn’t. In terms of mechanical gameplay, it focused on dealing damage over time as a primary. In terms of theme and fantasy, it focused on augmenting projectiles/arrows and enhancing traps. Neither BM nor MM did anything the likes of which, at the time. Again, as their primary focus.

‘Reworking SV to melee returned the spec to its roots’ - No it didn’t. Specializations were added in Cataclysm, and SV certainly wasn’t a melee spec at the time. In Vanilla/TBC, SV wasn’t even a core spec with a dedicated playstyle. It was reliant on the core gameplay of the class as a whole, which was primarily ranged by the intent of the design.

---

Need I go on?

I especially like this argument for their rework:

You got your Raptor Strike and all that and having those come back and play a role, moving into melee, giving mobility like the Harpoon to draw you in – it’s like it finally gave them a unique identity. If this is the beast companion guy that you’ve always wanted to play then you’re going to have that role.

Raptor Strike wasn’t a SV-thing, going back to the roots, it was a class-wide situational ability. It was Heroic Strike with a different name.

‘Moving SV into melee, making it the “beast companion guy”, finally gave it an identity of its own’ - Ironic argument, considering they just before that said that making it melee returned it to something that it was before. And also, “beast companion guy” is literally how they marketed Beast Mastery in the past, all the way up until the Legion reworks. Funny how that works…

@Leokitas-illidan

Look at that, didn’t even need to quote a different post to hit my point above about what the class was historically.

What point was that again?

[Leokitas-illidan]

Ahhh Bepples, I was wondering when you would crawl out from the dregs. I’m curious what you think makes my post so manipulative? Is it manipulating you? Are you starting to see some of the similarities to the old SV? I know its not identical like you would prefer but alas, life isn’t fair. Or maybe it just triggered you seeing how many spells are actually ranged?

Maybe you could link the original manual page again? I need some more proof that you your extreme distaste for the changes hunter has gone thru is directly related to this narcistic creed that because you liked RSV means you have the right to play RSV. “Here’s my proof, your all idiots. A page from the game manual as the game was 18 years ago. See this? its the bible it mustn’t be changed!” Give me a break. . . You still using a nokia too? Must have been enraged you when someone showed you a phone that folded for the first time. gasp “Phones don’t fold! It might do all the same things as a phone but it folds so therefore it cannot be a phone!”

@Bepples-barthilas

Let me assure you as someone who’s played every iteration of Hunter that this is wrong. These are the most important things for a Hunter spec:

• It must use a ranged weapon (since when were grenades and small crossbows melee weapons?)
• It must be fully capable at all distances within 40 yards (As a class hunter can fill this obligation, as MM and BM)

Where is this stated exactly? You aren’t the only person who has played every iteration of hunter. Your opinion is not law.

@Bepples-barthilas

Blizzard considered Hunters to be ranged weapon users first and foremost; even more importantly than pet users.

Key word is Considered. Past tense. and again as a class 2/3 of the available specs still hold true to this. You can indeed play a hunter and fulfill this fantasy.

@Bepples-barthilas

Its use of a ranged weapon is limited to a fake animation-only crossbow on a few attacks

So I was right? This is all because you want to run around with a bow on your back not necassarily because you don’t like the gameplay? Don’t feel like a hunter? Bummer for you. I do.

@Bepples-barthilas

I’ve noticed you seem to fancy yourself good at spin-doctoring based on this and your rancid takes on Double Tap’s removal. Let’s be clear: you aren’t good at it and you’re fooling nobody.

I dont know about all that. Surely, I’m AT LEAST as good as you are at it. Maybe not though. I get pretty dizzy reading your takes, alot of methane coming out that mouth.

[Leokitas-illidan]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

…ignoring the obvious sarcasm and bad-faith arguments.

No sarcasm. You keep invoking thematic not me. I discuss the gameplay. I asked you what you enjoyed so much about the gameplay. I understand the gameplay is different than the spec you enjoyed. That doesn’t mean the gameplay isn’t enjoyable though. Even if you got the short end of the stick by losing the spec you liked.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

We’re not there yet, are we? In fact, DF has just started…

which is why I said soon to be.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

What point was that again?

That the same fallacy laced argument can go both ways. If because it was historically ranged means it should be ranged. That when it has spent more time as historically melee it should be melee. It’s not my point. It’s the echoes of the RSV community point that has been laid out ad nauseum.

My point is history doesn’t need to dictate every facet of a spec. It changed. Unfortunately for you to something you don’t agree with.

I don’t know what else to tell you guys. . . Play MM or BM and accept your green popsicle. The red one melted. Us MSV enjoyers are just drinking the juice.

[Arhra-darkspear]

we already have the offhand xbow pistol.

not sure why we aren’t allowed to use these powers.

also, the bloat is real.

all the classes now have way too many abilities, and trying to keybind every damn skill to use makes. playing the classes more complicated because I’m have to use prefixes like shift, Ctrl, and alt to access my powers

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Leokitas-illidan

That the same fallacy laced argument can go both ways. If because it was historically ranged means it should be ranged. That when it has spent more time as historically melee it should be melee. It’s not my point. It’s the echoes of the RSV community point that has been laid out ad nauseum.

No offense, but I think you’re still not understanding the main point. Or well, you did just bring it up here, but for whatever reason, it still somehow escapes you.

It was historically ranged, yes, that much is true. And that fact means it should continue to be ranged. The fact of which state has been true for the longest isn’t really the point. The reason some players who speak favorably of RSV bring up the timeline, is because usually, MSV fans love to echo how “it has been melee for X years now, just get over it”. Again, the main point is that the spec was designed for a playerbase who had chosen to play hunter for what it was, a ranged weapon archetype with a lot of pet involvement.

And yes, to what degree individuals felt the ranged part vs the pet part was the most important aspect, ofc it varied. But the thing is, if you have a class that is exclusively designed for the combo of ranged(weapons) + pets, you’re naturally going to find a larger portion of individuals, who prefer that combo, playing the class in question. Is that all that you will find? No, but saying that the ranged aspects don’t really matter is the definition of a baseless assumption.

Anyway, again, the point is that the[then-current] hunter playerbase played the class for what it was, and there weren’t really any requests for reworking an existing hunter spec to melee. The point is that their decision to rework SV to melee wasn’t made with the [then-current] hunter playerbase in mind, something the devs have more or less said outright themselves.

@Leokitas-illidan

You keep invoking thematic not me. I discuss the gameplay.

I bring up both because it’s the combination that matters.

@Leokitas-illidan

I asked you what you enjoyed so much about the gameplay. I understand the gameplay is different than the spec you enjoyed.

Well, in comparison to the rest of the class…

I don’t enjoy what MM is about, it’s mechanically closer to that of a caster, despite how the thematic approach/fantasy is very different. I’m also not a big fan of “big numbers” gameplay, meaning abilities that deal a lot of front-loaded damage. I much prefer build-up mechanics. I also don’t particularly enjoy passive power-ups or maintenance buffs(commonly found in BM).

While I’ve historically been okay with BM, it is primarily a pet-based spec, and I prefer to focus mostly on the ranged weapon. Having said that, I don’t particularly enjoy hunter gameplay that doesn’t involve pets at all.

Current SV, no matter how people choose to spin it, is a melee spec. And especially since my focus is almost exclusively towards PvE, there’s no argument of “SV is ranged enough”. In fact, any melee at all is more or less a big no from me.

---

Now, take RSV:

• It was about the use of ranged weapons(not just ranged, like a caster).
• It was primarily about dealing damage over time.
• It was designed to be very fluent, no clunky(I hate that word) mechanics or delays. In other words, it did not feel like the spec worked against itself, talking gameplay.
• It focused on the theme/fantasy of augmented projectiles and enhanced traps.

The combination of those things is why I enjoyed it so much.

If you want more specifics towards what I would enjoy, feel free to download the TalentTreeManager app, if you don’t have it already, and import this code into it. The concept is obviously purely theoretical, so I couldn’t possibly say for sure exactly how well it would play. One thing’s for sure, it wouldn’t play anything like current MM does.

[Emphy-bleeding-hollow]

In my opinion Survival should be totally reworked. They seem to have explosives and stuff so why not focus more on traps and explosives with bomb and explosive shot? Sack the pet because it feels more like what a BM hunter should feel like sometimes. The interaction with your pet with flanking strike feels like it should be a BM thing. I donno why. I dont get why every spec needs a pet. They make it work with MM and lone wolf. They could bake utility into survival if done right.

I just feel like theres alot potential with survival and alot of cool ideas you could do with it. And the foundation is layed if they decide to take it more in an explosives/trap type of playstyle.

Like just pick a direction and go with it. Right now Survival has too many weird things going on.

[Bohdai-wyrmrest-accord]

Whats wrong with survival is that its a hunter class without a ranged focus spender for easier kiteing like a spell called arcane shot instead the 15 sec of ranged mongooses bite and to bake arcane shot into or KC resets and poison sting spreading. Bombs should be buffed and the center of the tree should be just an option to pick up butchery and cleave should be baseline and alow us to have both and there buff should be baked in not as a talent and they can put regular chakram in as an aoe focus regeneration skill.

Other then that hunters as a class is squishy and that needs fixed if there going give melee classes a lot CC and gap closers and wont hurt have more sustain for raids and mythic.

This idea came from us needing more aoe damage and my personal hate for aspect of eagle when we have perfectly fine arcane shot. Also i know well we don’t Need old chakrams but it be nice if it was an aoe alternative to flanking strike. And 3 melee cleaves means more bombs on wanting both even though a talent to get 3 butcherys would be superior a free cleave is just value to any single target build that might need some situation aoe since you have to take bombs.

[Skòl-nagrand]

@Emphy-bleeding-hollow

Right now Survival has too many weird things going on

Like what?

@Arhra-darkspear

also, the bloat is real

Not really, I “main” enhancement shaman and unholy DK, easily less buttons than shaman, bit more complex than UHDK… its not that bad really

@Dikkins-windrunner

I mean… By your logic, shaman are incredibly diluted and poorly designed. One uses a mace and shield and heals, one uses dual wield and melees, the other is a ranged caster

Yeah… Bepples is stuck in his personal time bubble. He likely thinks shamans are poorly designed for those very reasons, despite those reasons being the very reasons shaman is a great class.

All these essays about “muh ranged survival” are just white noise from like 4 salty characters, and provide nothing constructive to the actual spec at current.

To “fix” SV, it needs dmg% buffs all around particularly to AoE, bigger mongoose fury window would be nice, and perhaps some dps traps (not just steel trap) to further spice things up.

Or some additonal synergy with KC, like red bombs additionally providing a buff to KC on top of resetting it, idk.

All this constant derailing is just lame as hell, lol

[Bohdai-wyrmrest-accord]

@Skòl-nagrand

All this constant derailing is just lame as hell, lol

Truth. A ranged class can melee nothing in rule book that hunter cant use a axe or spear and melee tends to have better burst potential because of it weakness of being melee…its a fair trade no other hunter has the single target burst like survival or as much as survival. Like i refuse call current version of survival melee since it clearly still mostly ranged and im the type that rather get something new than to bring back warlords survival hunter be it ranged or melee or hybrid. And to be honest i like the hybrid playstyle but i hate Aspect of Eagle because its 2 things i hate about hunter class long CD and short window to do something. I would rather have arcane shot weaved into our talents with KC procs and serpent sting procs and arcane shot procs. Then boom 15sec of eagle and its over snooresvill feels bad wish it was free or replaced

[Arhra-darkspear]

I do feel. it’s a lot because in pvp you have to be able to weave in and out of range and melee. while managing your ccs and life.

also, the gdamn disengage is so crappy, it doesn’t workost of the time unless you jump them disengage,

unlike dh where it automatically thrusts u in the air and moves you.

soany times I’m trying. to press a, b, c, d,. e.,. f,. etc… that I forget. to press jump to disengage and I end up moving millimeter because disengage detected a. grain of sand on the ground that impeded my backwards progress

[Shadowaxe-mannoroth (Shadowaxe)]

Lol every time I come into the Hunter forums it the usual suspects in any thread that has SV in it. Still spewing the same tired arguments. Wow.

BTW I have that same handbook that shipped with the game. You know, when you actually had to BUY a copy, and there were no digital downloads.

You know what else that book says? It said Paladins were tanks. Clearly in Vanilla they were not. Paladin Tanking did not happen until the Illidian expac. So things change. That’s just the way it is.

Also a few changes could help SV, but SV is doing fine. Most speaking here are not in a world first guild or doing cutting edge min/max content. If you help your group and/or raid, then you are contributing, no matter who post up on a DPS chart.

[Toxiktraktør-thrall]

@Tripi-barthilas

Yea once again i am just flat out disagreeing with you that people in vanilla are stupid rather than ignorant. I think just calling all people that played vanilla stupid is just such a bad take.

You are kinda doing that yourself. The game is easy and literally tells you what to do in most aspects of the game. Not everything needs or requires a guide. I didnt even play in vanilla and was able to get to 60 and raid in classic in 5 weeks. so

@Tripi-barthilas

It was a new game, no online guides, people played differently. People being new to a game and not playing optimally doesnt make them stupid.

I dont think you are understanding the point and honestly, thats okay

@Llars-winterhoof

Kinda like playing a warrior with a pet, yah!

everytime someone says that it just tells me they never played a warrior

@Llars-winterhoof

Warriors, don’t they fight their enemies face to face?

so do rogues, dks, dhs, monks, pallys, etc

@Llars-winterhoof

THAT is what a Hunter is, a quiet killer.

I think you seen John Wick too many times

@Llars-winterhoof

and this is why MSV will never be a Hunter.

Its a hunter spec though so sucks to suck

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

If you want to continue arguing about this with Toxik, by all means, but he is a self-proclaimed troll so

literally never once called myself that so good reach. Its not trolling to tell forum crybabys to shut up about the whining, its pretty much just saying act your age since we all in our thirties.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

he has no interest in any sincere conversation, debate, argument or otherwise. He will argue his point a multitude of times, just with a minor twist to them each time, just to keep you hooked.

You are giving me far too credit. I dont put much effort or time in any of this here. The issue here is you dont seem to realize how dumb it is to consistently complain about a change from over half a decade ago. I do have some nice conversations from time to time, just not with you or bepples. You two are just class act clowns.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

This is what trolls do, and he loves it. For your sake, the best thing to do is just to ignore him…

Yeah no, nothing is loved about reading non stop crying about something FROM THE PAST AND BAD TAKES BY PEOPLE WHO DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT. There is no joy in any of that. Its actually annoying and exhausting. Its pathetic.

@Skòl-nagrand

What about hunters of old who used… Spears?

Hunters still do this, I have done this myself. Just the larpers here seem to want to avoid the realization of this being an actual thing in the world.

@Llars-winterhoof

“MSV is like Warriors with pets” is/was the most common description.

My arms warrior doesnt act anything like a MSV hunter, but I guess that just means i am trolling because Im disagreeing with larpers lmfao

@Hound-azshara

Is this how this conversation is going to go? Should I even been wasting my time talking to someone who’s just going to ignore whatever other people say, and repeat the same nonsensical talking points people have already addressed, like a broken record? Do you even care about having an actual discussion, and being open to the idea you could be wrong like an intellectually honest person?

Yeah, this is what he does. And if you continue he will tell you to not tone police as he is tone policing you. He also has never played the spec. So you absolutely should not listen to him of all people

@Aladreir-skywall

or just made it a 4th spec entirely

no

[Llars-winterhoof (Llars)]

@Leokitas-illidan

Because running around shooting exploding arrows is so quiet?

Hi. I wouldn’t know. When I play, I play Marks. With my Pet.

[Llars-winterhoof (Llars)]

@Toxiktraktør-thrall

I think you seen John Wick too many times

Is that a movie? Never seen it, But I HAVE spent a fair bit of time hunting. Honestly, NEVER run up on something, trying to kill it, if you don’t HAVE to.

[Toxiktraktør-thrall]

@Llars-winterhoof

Is that a movie? Never seen it, But I HAVE spent a fair bit of time hunting. Honestly, NEVER run up on something, trying to kill it, if you don’t HAVE to.

I ran up on a boar spear hunting back in north texas. Pretty effective especially when they want to charge and you got a good throwing arm

[Mcelroy-icecrown]

Survival needs so much work. The play style sucks, its identity is all over the map. It needs another complete overhaul. I’m not being a jerk but ranged needs to come back.

If they want a melee hunter spec so bad. I honestly think they need to sit down and design it. Give it an identity and make it a fourth spec. Players that enjoy melee surv should get to have a melee play style this just isn’t it. It has always felt like a quick let’s just change the spec to melee to change it throw together piece of crap.

[Skòl-nagrand]

@Mcelroy-icecrown

The play style sucks, its identity is all over the map

Explain please, that is incredibly subjective. Do you play an SV hunter?

@Mcelroy-icecrown

I honestly think they need to sit down and design it

… It’s quite literally in the game right now.

@Mcelroy-icecrown

Players that enjoy melee surv should get to have a melee play style this just isn’t it

What would make it, “it”? Because currently, not a single spec in the game plays like SV. I am of the opinion that it plays quite well, but its damage needs some attention.

Subjective take is subjective

[Toxiktraktør-thrall]

@Mcelroy-icecrown

The play style sucks, its identity is all over the map.

it doesnt. Most people dont understand how it works.

@Mcelroy-icecrown

If they want a melee hunter spec so bad. I honestly think they need to sit down and design it.

they did

@Mcelroy-icecrown

Give it an identity

they did

@Mcelroy-icecrown

and make it a fourth spec.

no

@Mcelroy-icecrown

Players that enjoy melee surv should get to have a melee play style this just isn’t it

Underleveled warrior shouldnt be talking about what hunters need

@Mcelroy-icecrown

It has always felt like a quick let’s just change the spec to melee to change it throw together piece of crap.

LOL no

[Mcelroy-icecrown]

Well for one it makes no sense. The ranged/melee hyrbrid idea is a good idea I just think it could be done differently. To me since survival uses a poke arm mostly/spear have the. Coming in and out of melee.

Have raptor/mongoose still. Add two more attacks to be a melee combo. Have them disengage to a ranged combo(arcane shot, bombs and black arrow as a throw back or old school explosive shot.) harpoon back in. Know when to disengage out and harpoon back in because of mechanics would make it a skill game. It’s a rough idea and maybe a crappy one but still an idea.

Right now the spec is all over the place and a hodgepodge of using ranged in melee and using a cooldown to melee at ranged.

[Dikkins-windrunner]

I agree in principle. The weaving of ranged and melee should be more integrated. I think that’s all it needs to fill fully baked. Aspect of the eagle, while cool and handy, is not satisfying gameplay.

We would also need more disengage abilities. Have 4 engages and 1 disengage doesn’t make sense for a spec that is meant to be played with more finesse. We can’t (and shouldn’t be able to) go toe to toe with other melee. And we don’t have the tools of rogues to reset fights. I’d personally give SV 3 charges of disengage, but give them diminishing returns if used back to back too quickly. I’d even take 2 charges.

If we lost one of our leaps to compensate, that’d be fine.