I mean its obviously in jest. Also, memeing isnt toxic. You have got to be next level soft to be offended by memes of all things like holy hell. It really just sounds like you are trying to invent some boogie man out of me. Just take the L
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You still evidently didn’t understand what it said, lol.
Did you drop this line to avoid history class in school?
You can learn from the past. In fact it’s very important. Blizzard has made many disastrous mistakes over the years because they failed to learn from past mistakes. In fact ignoring the past entirely is “ignorance and a failure to adapt”.
Level 1-10 establishes the basic building blocks of the class. Specs are meant to build on that, not suddenly take away from it.
Huh? It’s literally not.
You know I’m getting the impression from your posts that you try to imitate what you’ve seen in online arguments and use terms and phrases that sound good to you when you don’t properly understand them.
So are we now saying that performance isn’t a major factor in what spec people choose? After pretending that the only reason people don’t play SV is subpar performance?
You know plenty of SV Hunters including TSL moderators agree with the statement, right? Take it up with them if you don’t agree and feel like getting laughed at.
Melee is inherently more disadvantaged than ranged for the simple fact that, ignoring all other factors, it’s better to be able to deal full damage at 40 yards than to be unable. They have to add those “other factors” like movement, mechanics, and damage tuning to keep meele relevant.
If we are going to rely on unproveable and unfalsifiable anecdotes, just about every single Hunter I talk to avoids the spec out of indifference or outright disdain. I’ve even spoken to Hunters who want the spec deleted. Not replaced with ranged SV; outright deleted and Hunter to be a ranged-only 2 spec class of BM and MM.
Most of the people I meet who do like melee SV play Hunter very little if at all and often in fact hate the class.
But, of course, that’s all anecdotal and no one has any reason to believe me.
I talk all about the spec’s toolkit and design. It’s the backbone of the argument that the spec is an unsalvageable mess.
Ah yes what a great bar for success: if literally a single person enjoys the outcome then it’s not wasted effort.
Coke should bring back New Coke because even though the reception was overwhelmingly negative and sales tanked at least some people preferred it over the original 
This is your brain on Survival.
Well you’re talking to someone who posted an entire write-up on a hypothetical future ranged SV. He even made a talent tree.
It’s silly to fault people for not making suggestions to improve melee SV when they believe the entire fundamental premise of melee SV is flawed.
You might as well be heckling someone for not making suggestions on how to improve your chocolate frying pan. You got it wrong from the start and need to make it out of something else.
something something polishing a turd…
Just because you ignore them doesn’t mean they aren’t arguments.
We have said what’s not working for the spec though. The melee is not working.
This is the problem with melee SV discussions; the pretense that everything before Legion is irrelevant, like the spec didn’t even exist. All the time you get SV Hunters wearing “die-hard main of the spec since Legion” as a badge of honour. Even the writer of the wowhead DF Survival preview says it.
There was a history of Survival before Legion, and it matters. Blizzard and the melee SV fanboys can’t just wish it out of history as much as they revise and lie about it.
Ranged SV is still relevant, particularly because, to be blunt, it worked a lot better than melee SV ever did. I know it’s hard to believe, but there weren’t forum threads every day back then on how to save SV and how they need to “land the plane”. We didn’t need them because it not only worked fine but it worked very well.
Because “disagreeing with Dikkins” isn’t against the rules.
Isn’t one of the core pillars of making SV melee in the first place pretending that SV used to be melee in Vanilla? Don’t talk to me about “living in the past”.
You say don’t engage yet after this post you’re still engaging.
Reductionist take. Is Fury just an Arms variant?
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Stop responding to each other already. use my comment as a buffer to post ideas please how would you Fix survival in a few patches. And maybe Hunters shared problems from the hunter tree.
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I’ve always felt like Survival Hunter should play like Red Mage from FFXIV.
You play mostly at range, then when you build your bars or whatever, you jump into melee combat to spend the bars, doing big DPS. Then when you’re done, you leap out of melee and restart from ranged again.
If you haven’t played Red Mage before, it’s honestly really fun. It’s my favorite Job next to Black Mage in FFXIV.
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I mean we are built for it. but instead of building up power we are reducing threat by geting there health lower cause a fair fight wont work.
It’s pretty normal for people to assume your game experience based on your profile picture. It doesn’t make any sense at all but people do it all the time. The people making these assumptions are probably the same people who stand in fire and wonder why they’re dying.
Huh? It literally is. Your entire essays and attempted arguments are purely subjective, because it is what you want the spec to be. You aren’t the overruling body on hunters.
Heres a hot tip Bepples:
I don’t give a damn how you feel about the spec.
I don’t care about your “we can learn from history”, because you are living in the past which is inherently different than learning from it, lmao. You literally cannot move on.
I just don’t care enough about your feelings on Survival to keep going in this dumb circle with you.
I play it, you don’t, you are salty about the spec - I will keep playing it while you whine on the forums.
Where did I say that? Pretty sure I’ve been saying that it has great gameplay that is unique, but could use some tuning…
Jesus man, get some help. Think I’m pretty much done giving you attention
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Oh Skol you must have missed the vote last week, Blizz made Bepples head of Hunter Design- expect msv to be gone next week… 
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lmfao what kind of response is that to feign denial? I just spit out my drink and you owe me a coffee.
its a video game not Germany
Again the Warrior with a shield argument completely shatters this point you are trying to make.
It is
If that was the case id be maining a warlock
Then just delete all the melee and watch how fast the game is abandoned. Its like saying Mcdonalds should only sell chicken nuggets because kids enjoy them while adults lose the big mac option because there is more money to be made in a happy meal.
Yes because players dont count, only random youtube videos to people you agree with is what matters.
Boy if this was true you wouldnt be at odds literally every day on the forums. Why you already trying to lie so hard in 2023?
Because you are biased. Kinda hard to listen to that. If you actually played the spec and was unhappy with it then anything you ever had to say would hold more ground
isnt outlaw just assassin with swords?
Its like that 40 year old man you see sometimes who still has his high school haircut. Bepples kinda reminds me of Gary King from The Worlds End if you havent seen it you should and you will know what I mean.
tHe CuStOmEr Is AlWaYs RiGhT lmfao
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my thoughts exactly. i dunno whatever possessed them to put it full melee. its laughable. it was prefect the way it was in the mid to end of mop era, despite what a few trolls that would lurk the forums and try to sabotage things would say.
all they need to do is bring it back as a poisonous dot and explosive shot, trap master. voila. blizzard saved the day again.
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This one is for bepples. He who links 18 year old pages from the vanilla era hunter claiming it proves that blizzard intended it to be a ranged spec.
If you take a look at the picture above and look at the survival tree notice a few things.
The Icon is an axe. Typically a melee weapon no? I mean you can throw an axe but you can also throw a dagger. Heck, you can throw a bow if you run out of arrows. Wont do you much good.
Row 1 talent 3 - increases parry chance. Seems melee to me.
Row 2 talent 2 - Increases the damage of raptor strike and mongoose bite.
Row 2 talent 3 - Improves our melee ranged slow ability
Row 3 talent 3 - Deterrence grants 25% dodge and parry chance.
Row 5 talent 2 - Counter attack. Melee.
The only inherently ranged option on this tree is wyvern sting. Which is just a CC. We wouldn’t consider warrior ranged because they have storm bolt.
This vanilla tree; the “essence of the hunter class” as bepples would say. Was the melee tree for the hunter class to utilize their melee weapons.
Seems to me like blizzard intended at the launch of the game in 2003 for survival to be based around improving hunters melee capabilities. So really the rework of survival in legion to become a melee is more along the lines of blizzards 18 year old vision than anything they did to the hunter class before the legion rework.
Originally hunter used both melee and ranged weapons and survival was the tree for the use of your melee weapon. They leaned a bit heavier into the ranged components come BC and wrath but according to Bepples vanilla is what defines the specs identity. What they added later is of no consequence.
This you are actually right about. Survival started out in vanilla as a melee focused tree.
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I’m sure he’ll get back to you on this. Either way, the only thing this proves is that you don’t actually know how the class was designed to function back then.
This is a defensive talent, not melee.
By adding a root effect, indeed, to allow you to get away from your enemy, to use ranged abilities again.
Again, not melee. It’s a defensive talent, focusing on survivability.
Like has been said many times before, no matter what category you spent most of your points in, none of it made it so you wanted to intentionally move into melee range, if such could be avoided. You keep ignoring the baseline toolkit of the class, which again, was primarily ranged.
Literally, the only melee-based offensive ability you could use reliably was Raptor Strike. The other ones required you to dodge or parry an incoming attack. If Blizz actually intended for SV to be the melee-tree, you’d think they’d make sure that it would have at least somewhat of a decent setup for it, in all parts of the game.
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I see Ghorak already responding so I won’t repeat too much of what he will say, but you’re making the very common mistake of assuming classic talent trees were intended to completely define your playstyle and identity like they did from Cataclysm onwards. That really wasn’t the intent of talent trees. Most of a character’s traits and capabilities were defined in the base class. Each tree was intended for mostly passive bonuses to particular capabilities you wanted to be better at depending on the situation. You wouldn’t even put all the points in one tree; you would spend some in others which meant picking up ranged stuff from MM in almost every case; even the build you linked does this.
As a Survival Hunter you would still have a ranged weapon, a full ranged toolkit, and tuning that ensured ranged always scaled and performed better. Hunters were not intended to stick to melee, as any spec. Those melee talents are for situational usage, because Blizzard wanted Hunters to have to play around having a minimum range. Other people in PvP knew this and would always try to close the gap. Survival was intended to give you the tools to, as the name suggests, survive those situations and escape back to range. You label Improved Wing Clip as a melee talent, but it is also crucial for escaping back to ranged; as was Entrapment. You did NOT have the tools to stick to melee and do well there because that was not the intent.
You say I consider nothing beyond Vanilla to count. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion because it does count. Every iteration of Hunter would continue to double down on ranged and sideline melee, until Legion when some newer developers would whiplash Survival around to not even having a ranged weapon at all. Despite all the revisionism that’s totally unlike any original iteration of SV and represents a critical misunderstanding of the purpose of classic SV.
P.S. You’re also forgetting the most crucial talent of SV-focused builds: Lighting Reflexes. It gave +15% agility, and agility gave 2 ranged attack power and 1 melee attack power per point. So in fact your ranged damage would scale even more steeply as SV. If you want to make a better argument for a melee-focused SV you should at least use the pre-1.7 version of the trees, but you still won’t get around the fact that all the ranged weapon capability was baked into the core class no matter the specialisation and Blizzard explicitly outlined ranged weapons as the foundational element of the class.
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Correct me if I am wrong but in order to parry. It requires wielding a melee weapon.
Again Parrying requires a melee weapon, No?
What you seem to ignore is the entire way specs were designed back then were different. Come legion they took the core of a spec and what it was about and leaned into it. Thus Arcane mages use almost entirely arcane magic. Fire mages fire magic.
The entire design philosophy has changed. You have to stop ignoring that. Because based on the new design philosophy that every class in this game has been affected by the survival rework to melee was the logical step. Based on the original trees that were implemented with the launch of the game in 2003 that Bepples likes to cite so often.
I hate to post twice in a row but I noticed here that you’re responding to a part where I disputed that the 3 pre-Legion specs were similar/interchangeable.
Are you saying that you think they were distinct in Classic before becoming more similar later?
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And? Like I said, none of it would make you want to intentionally seek out melee range. None of it intended for you to do this.
No, that is what you’ve been doing so far.
Their intent was to take what specs were in WoD, and double down on individual fantasies(as they’ve said themselves plenty of times) and identities.
If you look at WoD spec design, you can clearly see that this wasn’t the case.
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Which is exactly what the sweeping reworks to every class in legion did. They leaned into what was unique for each spec across all the classes. I do understand that the trees worked differently in vanilla. My point is the melee points in the tree were what were unique to that tree. The survival hunter icon was literally an axe. This is not that hard to understand. The entire spec and build system is different. I only reference the old “stuff” because it is what you constantly throw in people face. What was unique to survival tree was the focus on melee enhancement. When they reworked every single class with there new design philosophy in legion the leaned into the core of those spec.
Of course the trees worked differently it was 18 mfing years ago.
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Seems like “fixing” it would be extremely easy. I like the way it plays for the most part.
I feel like we hit plenty hard enough. For me it would only take a few things, but I’d like something like this:
-Reducing Mongoose bite from 30 Focus to 25. (Allowing us to reach 5 stacks faster and getting a couple more in before window expires)
-Increasing Kill Command (untalented version) to reward 20 Focus, up from 15. Talented could be 25-28 Focus.
For Flavor: At 5 Stacks, change our Mongoose Bite animation to look “better” -OR- change “Mongoose Bite” ability/icon into “Mongoose Fury” and have it do a combo attack, similar to a Warriors rampage, but maybe have it apply stacking heavy bleeds instead of just burst damage. (Hunters know how to bleed animals out, it’s not far fetched to think it would be a bigger part of the tool kit.)
Change Hunters mark into something fun, maybe in PVP, it could be a 2 minute cool down and put a debuff on your target letting them know they are being tracked. Increases your damage on them by 5% and let’s you see them on your map, or even a red mist that follows them like a scent trail so you can find them.
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Increase bomb baseline damage and make the talent into “Wildfire Cluster”.
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Add a talent/pvp talent where disengage triggers Camouflage for 6 to 8 seconds without triggering the CD.
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Increase baseline dodge % and increase baseline durability vs physical damage and elemental. Hunters are tough, not squishy, and they are out in the elements all the time so they should be able to withstand them.
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Remove Aspect of the Eagle, or just make it weapon swap to a ranged weapon for 15 seconds, or until you are in melee range of your target. We have Arcane Shot, Kill Shot, Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot, etc. We don’t need to pretend our melee attacks can hit from 40 yards.
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Edit - For Raid Utility, have our pet buff (leech, movement speed, or health %) work for entire raid, even if you scale them down a tad for the raid. (Ex): 5-7% leech instead of 10%).
There are a million other ideas but these would make it even more fun to me, and it would increase damage enough to be “relevant” and even more fun.
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It is the case if I live 18 years in the past and quote 18 year old manuals to justify my premises. Considering 18 years ago the survival tree was about enhancing melee capabilites no? Maybe Blizzard suffered the same blow to the head Bepples did that causes him to constantly look at vanilla wow for validation of his opinion. So when they were reworking it they said hey, in vanilla survival leaned into the melee aspect of the hunter. Let’s roll with that.
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Yes parrying was an important defensive capability of Hunters especially in PvP back then because there would often be times where we got stuck in melee and couldn’t yet escape.
You know PvP builds of BM and MM also tended to dip into the SV tree and take things like Improved Wing Clip and Deterrence. Does this make them also melee specs in your eyes?
It actually seems you’re the one ignoring it because you’re assuming that because SV has some melee-buffing talents in it that meant you would choose to fight in melee more.
As an SV Hunter in Classic if you could spend 100% of your time at range you would. Because you were both safer and more effective at range, by virtue of being a Hunter.
We know the philosophy changed and we’re saying it was a bad change. They should not chase spec uniqueness to the point where there’s almost no baseline class identity left. That’s what they did with Hunters and Survival, and it worked out so badly they followed up with another rework in the very next expansion to alleviate the problem.
It wasn’t, though, because a) classic SV would still primarily used a ranged weapon with ranged attacks and b) melee only got more and more sidelined out of the class until MoP removed it entirely.
It makes absolutely zero sense to make SV melee in that context. It’s both totally unlike anything SV has been before, and it’s also just a handicapped Hunter because they don’t have the minimum range requirement any more which is what facilitated those melee-buffing talents in Classic.
Sure, and with Hunters they got it seriously wrong. Discontent with the state of the class was at an all-time high in Legion, not just because of the SV change.
Also by that point most of SV’s history was as the munitions expert with Explosive Shot and Black Arrow, so they did not lean into what was unique about it but rather removed it entirely and replaced it with something different.
Melee combat was a historical footnote even for SV by the time Legion rolled around.
SV was the utility aspect of the class that was adjacent to the pets (BM) and the ranged combat (MM). All 3 specs shared those same pillars: pets, ranged combat, utility. They each focused in on one of them. You would not forsake the others entirely as any of the specs. So SV was still very much a ranged spec. Notice how it didn’t just buff melee; it also buffed traps and kiting in general, gave you an extra CC, and buffed tracking.
So making SV melee in Legion is not “leaning into the core of the spec”. Survival is meant to be resourceful, and nothing is less resourceful than arbitrarily throwing away the most crucial resource of the class. You would never forsake the ranged weapon as SV in classic, yet in Legion onwards you don’t have one. How is that focusing in on the core? Never mind the fact that by 7.0 patch day SV hadn’t even had a melee weapon for a while.
Stop inventing history. It won’t work for you here. You’re not as slick/convincing as you think you are. This goes for your rancid opinions on Double Tap’s removal, as well. You haven’t been here for long yet you’re already “leaning into your core identity” as someone who is addicted to terrible Hunter takes.
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