You shouldn’t ever be below 35% health when you take a hit as MT anyways so that talent isn’t really that good.
That doesn’t matter since Warrior sets have more stam to where it cancels out.
By the time you outscale Warrior tps, it won’t matter because bears will be the undisputed kings of tps and dps at that point. You definitely do NOT start out doing more tps than a Warrior.
That is a nice talent but it is not quite double damage overall. It’s more like 30-40% more. 40% would be if the boss swing timer is the same as yours. 10% * 4 = 40% but realistically you will attack faster so it will be a bit less than that.
Expertise doubles as our best threat stat in addition to the mitigation benefits. Paladins have to sacrifice stam for spell power and block rating to be viable as MT AT ALL.
I don’t think the math checks out when you factor in the SP and block rating required.
The fact that private servers and retail TBC did the opposite for their MTs shows otherwise. This isn’t WotLK. It’s not the same game.
“35% of your hit points doesn’t count as hit points.”
Only applies to 4/5 pieces of gear, and Paladins still have more HP in application.
What do you think Reckoning, Holy Shield, Consecrate, and Righteous Fury do exactly?
Do you ever actually test these hilarious ideas of yours?
“… double their auto attack damage.”
Your reading comprension > doesn’t exist.
Said no Paladin ever. This is the thing that people bring up when they have no god damn argument at all.
It is baseless, annoying, and wrong.
You wear a Spell Damage weapon. That is all.
What math?
What is it with you people who bring up “maths” as a factor for their argument, but don’t actually relay any god damn “maths”. What’s the point of this?
Warriors typically generate around 80-120% more parriable attacks over a Paladin without using Reckoning.
1 attack per GCD(1.5).
5ish attacks per 9 seconds with a 1.8 weapon.
9/1.5 = 6 bonus attacks.
Ignoring Rage starvation, you’d see a Warrior attack 11 times compared to a Paladin’s 5 over 9 seconds.
Realistically, Warriors would generate 9 attacks to a Paladin’s 5.
Retail TBC players were garbage. And even during TBC, people knew that Warriors were terrible MTs.
Private servers for TBC are just pathetic. The guild quality on those servers is unbelievably mediocre.
It’s a legitimate problem with Ardent Defender though. Ardent Defender only works if your health is <35% at the start of the attack. It’s a simple math problem to figure out exactly what incoming damage you’d need to take for the talent to become literally worthless. Even before it’s useless, as melee damage taken increases, the window in which Ardent Defender is useful shrinks.
You’re the guy saying that Reckoning literally doubles auto-attack damage. It doesn’t. It’s a proc. It doubles auto-attack damage while it’s active only.
Plenty of Paladins put on more SP than just their weapon. Hell, their tier sets are full of SP.
At the least, Paladins wear just a SP weapon. If they want more DPS and/or TPS, they equip more SP gear.
Ardent Defender is extremely good. It’s way better against enemies that dual wield. Some of the hardest hitting enemies in the game have multi-hitting attacks that trigger Ardent Defender 100% of the time before those attacks could kill you anyway.
While tanking multiple adds > godlike.
While tanking multi-hitters > godlike.
While tanking hard hitters > still good.
There is no point trying to debate the usefulness of Ardent Defender. After Block Value is calculated, there is almost no way for Ardent Defender to not provide EH.
The real problem is that BE pallies look like they should be in a boy band.
I can handle dwarf pallies, but BE pallies really break my immersion when they’re prancing around the dungeon. It’s a serious issue. Now warriors and bears, they look the part.
Also, tanking with a mana bar is an affront to God.
Neither draenei or blood elfs feel like they belong in classic. Both are ridiculous looking and super cartoon-y.
Edit: To add to this, the female dwarf walk animation makes it look like they’re playing a different game entirely. They seem to ‘glide’ instead of walk/run, always hated seeing it.
It’s starting off in a high position in their base. Prot warriors have the most base HP and mitigation naked. Obviously this only gets better with gear. Pal and Druid have to gear to surpass War in HP. Prot War is uncrushable when naked with shield block.
So the layers of D stance, armor, unhittable, uncrittable, block makes them super tanky then also spell reflect or increased spell reduction to boot.
Prot War also has the best control, 2 stuns that don’t DR with each other. You can revenge stun a target tab and 5 sec conc blow the next. Then tab over and silence another.
Actually Prot War starts out in the best spot gear wise since they are ahead of both tanks in mitigation and HP base. Pally and Druid catch up on HP and surpass with gear. So no Prot War doesn’t have to gem all stam to keep up.
Why? They can have both.
Paladin is literally the worst MT they are a good trash and Aoe tank. Don’t get me wrong a pally can MT but they are behind War/Druid.
Actually they are the best.
Yea but Warrior starts off with way higher base HP So Pally needs that 16% to eventually catch up. There is a reason why War is only 5%.
While talking about base stuff. A Prot War is uncrushable NAKED. With anticipation, deflection and SS talents a naked Prot War has 107% total avoidance with Shield Block and pushes being crushed off the table.
People don’t realize how far ahead Prot Wars start out at with HP, mitigation etc. This gives them more gearing options making them the premiere tank in TBC.
As for parry haste, or people saying Shield Block will go down and then they are vulnerable which isn’t true at all. First off it should never be down. Shield Block is on a 5 sec CD and has 2 charges. With even moderate gear both charges will never be used up. As hits will both be parried and dodged so it doesn’t get consumed.
Then people forget about D stance and Armor, it’s not like Prot War don’t have enough and both in combination solidify them as the overall better tank with their tool kit.
Overall interesting thread and discussion but some seriously biased views being tossed around.
Stop coming to the TBC board. Go to the Vanilla Board.
Tier sets in TBC have 5 pieces. Not 8. Even if Warrior did get more Stamina, he would only get more Stamina from a maximum of 5 pieces of gear totalling around 45ish Stamina on average.
Considering 2/5ths of Tier gear is sub optimal on average anyway, that leaves Warrior with a 27ish Stamina bonus while being down 11% Stamina.
11% Stamina generally totals upwards of 99-154ish additional Stamina.
Meaning, Warrior has THE LEAST HP OF THE THREE TANKS.
First off, even without Parry Haste, you can still get hit more than 2 times in 5 seconds. Second off, it’s basically impossible to hit abilities on CD perfectly. Even if you could, you still wouldn’t be Crush immune.
Third off, bonus attacks and Parry haste exist whether you think they do or do not.
Warrior is not Crush immune with Shield Block. He gets to Block 2 attacks. That’s it.
No, people don’t forget about D Stance. You don’t know how Mitigation works in World of Warcaft.
Warrior has significantly less Armor than a Druid, such that he actually takes noticeably more damage even with Defensive Stance.
Warrior has less real Damage Reduction and Block than a Paladin as Paladin has Ardent Defender and Holy Shield.
Shut the hell up you clueless, egotistical idiot.
Stop mouthing off about an iteration of the game you didn’t even play.
You will probably have around 50% block and avoidance in T4 if you gear like in WotLK (stacking stam > armor). This means you need 20% (technically 22.4% but lets say 20% for simplicity) block chance to push crushes off the table. 1% block chance requires 7.9 block rating so you would need 158 more block rating. A Warrior could’ve gotten 158 stam instead with the same ilvl budget used for the block chance. Oh do you want to keep up in tps with the Warrior? That is going to cost some more stam to use the SP items you need to keep up. It does get better at higher tiers but that’s also when Ferals become BROKEN with their tps and dodge chance.
The best MT is Prot Warrior until the raid gets decked in T6 gear and the MT is now a Feral Druid.
This is factually wrong. Yet you tell other people to read up on the topic
Warrior is 100% crush immune with Shield Block up and as I said NAKED with the right talents. The fact you are arguing this very basic fact makes me believe you don’t understand how crushing blows work or how to push them off the hit table.
You aren’t listening, not sure why people feel like out of the gate Pal/Druid are this crazy amazing tank. It takes awhile for both of them to catch up to War. Pal/Druid have less base HP and mitigation so they need gear to scale up to a War. It isn’t War that has to gem stam to catch up, it’s Pal/Druid.
Not sure how this is getting twisted around lol. Prot War starts off strong and finishes strong.
Yes I do know how it works, that is why I commented on it. A druid needs more Armor to make up for their weaknesses. Which they do have. Druids rely on Avoidance and Armor and at some point Avoidance fails. Which is when they do get crushed they take spikey damage and die. Then with no oh crap buttons they stress healers more than Prot Wars.
Unhittable > avoidance
D stance, block, armor, uncrushable > just armor
Prot just has less weaknesses because they are so strong all around and have so many layers of mitigation.
Not true at all. A Pally starts off with far less mitigation, avoidance, block. They never catch up and have a much harder time pushing off being crushed. Like I said a Prot War can do it naked. 107% avoidance… Naked with shield block up.
As others have mentioned many times it isn’t useful as the Pally can get clapped from 45+% HP and it never triggers.
Not sure why you are so angry but it is amusing. It’s been a pleasure to correct you and hope you have a splendid day. I hope you find some joy in your life because obviously your day isn’t going so hot to be yelling at people in a discussion thread.
Good luck
Again overall interesting thread and discussion but some seriously biased views being tossed around
How about you take your own advice? Every time I’ve played an authentic private server, Warriors were the most popular MT BY A COUNTRY MILE! Paladins aren’t even a distance second either as that would go to Feral Druids. If content is a joke then the meta will be to have a Feral Druid as MT and NOT a Prot Paladin.
So Pally needs that 16% to eventually catch up. There is a reason why War is only 5%.
