To some extent you are correct, however … Blizz may have done a bit too much damage.
I’m not being hyperbolic when I state that the MU Orc character roster was so destitute with Saurfang’s death that Blizz HAD to bring Rexxar and Thrall back to pad it out. If they hadn’t, Eitrigg and friggen Cromush are their most developed characters … let that sink in for the moment. That is a humbling truth. The Forsaken Sylvie cult of personality also needed to go, but they are actually in worse shape than the Orcs or even Darkspear … with Calia Menethil actually risking shattering everything about their racial fantasy to pieces. Which … is why they decided to shove Voss into her current position … there is no one left.
This argument that Alliance players want the Horde Destroyed always comes from the mouth of Horde players like you Droite. Alliance players simply want a evenly told narrative. What is fair for one side should be fair for another. The Alliance should have some characters killed off or go bad and need to be stopped. Vice versa the Horde should suffer some losses to invest them in the war.
This argument that the Horde lost all engagements falls flat when anything the Alliance “won” will never be shown in game. Any time the Horde wins something Blizzard make sure to reflect it in game.
The fact the Alliance fantasy cannot be to defeat the Horde and instead its about saving them is the reason this expac was so stupid.
Better that the faction gets some development rather than its entire story being directed through one character. Sure the horde races are facing some change however as you yourself have stated you are looking forward to what this council would mean.
What development? We have the “potential” for development, nothing else. Gazlowe presents the “potential” for the Bilgewater to go down a less destructive path. Rokhan presents the “potential” for the Darkspear to reclaim their strength within the Horde. Voss has the “potential” of becoming a great Forsaken Rep; even if she is an atrocious, forced on right now. A council system has the “potential” to bring stability and growth to a Horde more representative of all its parts.
However … potential is worthless if its never achieved, and Blizz has an absolutely atrocious track record on not putting in the time and assets needed to make any of this worthwhile. A Council System comprised of underdeveloped half-characters is not something that is going to bring “development” … but is rather a placebo to make it appear as if “development” has been achieved; without any of the hard work. Until Blizz is willing to actually put in that work … its shallow lipservice, and little else; a lot like Saurfang’s cinematics.
The ebb and flow of WoW’s story means sooner or later new character will fill the vacuum. As an example, during the start of World of Warcraft proper aside from Jaina there was no notable human character. Sure we had name character like Anduin and Bolvar and Benedictus but it took years for them to actually end up with a personality(Anduin) or at least be iconic(Bolvar).
I honestly doubt Calia was ever going to be leader of the Forsaken. She seems more like a neutral figure then an actually Horde leaning one.
I dont want to derail this but as I have said, multiple times, I actually think Voss journey has been closer to the journey of the average forsaken then Slyvanas ever was.
Not totally true either. Of the victories I remember we end up turning Taurajo and Honor Stand into a ruin/Alliance encampment. We burned down a goblin base in Felwood and Deathknell is a clear sign of an Alliance victory.
The main problem with Alliance though is we need it more of it, or at least a flashier showing of it.
The unfortunate truth is that this is not necessarily true for the Horde. Vol’jin got killed with little regards to what it would do to the Darkspear; and Rokhan … the underdeveloped, and predictable replacement … is taking his position finally after 3 years … in a single line of extra dialogue in 8.3. Gazlowe’s transition into the Bilgewater’s Trade Prince spot is only barely better; and Voss’s current role is really bizarre and forced for who she’s been portrayed as being since Cata. She especially needs a lot of work … as do many of the AR Reps.
I mean, Cairne gets killed offscreen in book material; Most of Baine’s character development and motives occur exclusively in the external reading material; Vol’jin gets killed by Trash Mob in Legion; and even Saurfang got appointed to MU Orc Rep in tweet lol!
Anduin hasn’t changed at all as a character, That is the point of this thread.
From vanilla to Current games his character has always been defined by his acceptance of the Horde regardless of what they do. He never questions this and always believes the Horde has something worth saving in it. However they never explain why this would be the case even with everything the Horde has done.
When he was the voice of peace in his fathers ear he was more Palatable but since Varian is now gone he has no foil or someone to challenge him. Not to mention the writers without reason place him in the same position of power as his father, even though their outlooks were completely different.
Even the death of his father doesn’t phase him at all he basically forgets everything his father taught him because it doesn’t suit his outlook.
The world never challenges him and the writers simply make things happen to save him and protect his ideals. Things like jaina and her flying ship. Or Baine bringing Jaina her brother. Or saurfang starting a rebellion. He doesn’t actively do anything to facilitate these actions they are just characters he has had brief interactions with that bend to his thinking.
He is the most boring character blizzard have developed that is protected by the hackney writing of bad authors.
I never said he change, I said he actually got a personality. You literally dont get much from him when he was still a kid.
Well for one he actually became friends with Baine. For another, I say he just doesnt like needless Bloodshed. Lastly, considering he was willing to let even Moira off the hook after she kidnapped him and realize even enemies can end up being allies.
His father literally was willing to work with the Horde for the greater good. His father taught him to do what a king must do. And sometimes that meant the hard choices.
You have Tyrande and Genn constantly challenging him about the Horde. WoW being WoW and the story that holding on to grudges is bad will ultimately portray them as wrong though.
In Saurfang’s case his actions of freeing him literally starts the chain of events. I also expect that Anduin having such a strong relation to Baine also influenced his decision. As for Jaina, sure he lucked out. But hey, considering Sylvanas plot armor I think about abit of luck evens it out.
This is exactly the issue with Anduin they story will be twisted to make sure that he was right and everyone else is wrong. Those who disagree with him will either end up villian batted or be twisted to his thinking.
The story that the Alliance is wrong for wanting any Justice is a bad one. The Writers trying to use Anduin as a mouth piece for their Moral standards is why he isn’t liked. The writers need to step back and write characters to be more realistic to their setting and stop trying to teach the player base to think like they do.
This is why he is hated as he doesn’t listen to any other council. Him in charge of the Alliance and having him do whatever he pleases is ruining the story. His father at least listened to his council at times which made him a more balanced character.
Saurfang could have gone and attacked some Alliance outpost and get his Honorable death he wanted or he could have been killed by any alliance after being released. Baine could have killed Derek and Jaina would have still wanted the Horde destroyed. Anduin has to continually be saved for his own stupidity as the story bends around to justify his decisions.
Sylvanas is the villians and has apparently played us all. The reason she has plot armor is again because anduin is written the way he is. I mean if he had walked into that throne room and just killed her she would have died to 4 of the strongest alliance champions. Instead he lets her monologue and get away, twice.
Like it or not anyone in WoW who pursues further bloodshed for whatever reason will be villain batted. That is the entire point, hence why a good chunk of Horde characters are now dead.
Justice is a balance scale. Mercy, and abit of practicality, is also important. If we all had your way we would all end up dead already to N’zoth.
And right now the people who have cause the most harm to it are dead(Garrosh) on the run(Sylvanas) or being imprisoned by their own people(Sylvanas supporters). I’d also point if we all had to face justice for every crime/wrong doing there would a few Alliance would probably end up dead/suffering.
Yeah, I dont think they will do that. Blizzard has made it quite clear since Warcraft 3 old hatred are just as much as problem as the wars that initially birthed them. And honestly, if the real world kept clinging to every slight/every pain we have ever caused each other we would all be worse off.
Varian did what he thought was best and ignore council from people like Jaina when he thought it would lead to a worse outcome.
Baine of all people would kill for no reason. Anduin read Saurfang correctly, he may have wanted death but he wanted to save HIS horde more than that. At worse, he made a gamble with Saurfang and it paid off. Sometimes life is a gamble.
Or she would have avoid the hit and flown off. It would still play out exactly the same sans her monologue. Besides, it was the start of the expac. Slyvanas was guaranteed to survive.
So you’re saying that DURING the faction war patches, no one was meant to win just because ‘‘big baddie incoming, you can’t kill/make either faction lose’’ That’s one horrible justification for bad writing.
That i’m fine with, give the Alliance a bit of Villian batting. I mean if the Horde still survive all the times they have been the bad guys the Alliance could butcher the Horde entirely and still be able to repent and come out looking fine.
This game is called Warcraft after all a game based on two factions fighting each other. If one side does all the fighting while the other does all the dying it wouldn’t make for a very good game. AKA BFA
Again this is the writers basically bending the story to Justify Anduin precious little outlook. While it also requires him to ignore everything else the horde is doing during the war.
Boy you love to speculate, Again this is just the story being badly written and thus makes Anduin seem like a stupid character.
This is a story taking a natural progession, namely the main villain not dying in the first act.
And we will end up losing at the very minimun Genn and Tyrande. Also we will probably end up having to beg the Horde help us if not outright invade our cities killing our own NPC with little to show for it in the end. You might want a retread of Warcraft 3, I dont.
Pretty sure we end up killing Horde left and right thoughout this expansion. What you want seems to be just for us to mindlessly kill anyone regardless if they deserve it or not. That is not the Alliance I want/that is now what should be. It should be BETTER than the Horde.
Um… you just gave the very example of why I am against villain batting the Alliance. The Horde might have survived BfA, but that didn’t make it a satisfactory story. They had a garbage experience through their entire War Campaign, and I’m glad I didn’t play it on any of my Horde alts. I would not want to continuously get beaten down Alliance side the same way. Because that’s what Blizzard uses villain bats for: beating villains to a decayed state that a dead horse wouldn’t be jealous of.
No villians died this expac, that not natural story progression its bad writing. I mean she has her Valkyr we could have killed her 3 times over the course of the expac and been brought back.
Basically having anduin standing in the room drooling while sylvanas flies away everytime time he confronts her is just stupid.
The Alliance Needs to lose some characters, we have far too many. The Alliance has a bloated hero pool so large blizzard forget they exist. Genn and Tyrande are at minimum on what the Alliance need to lose.
I think you forget the alliance still ends up helping the Horde warcraft 3. I’m more looking for a warcraft 2 alliance with the Alliance actually looking to defeat the Horde. Though I’d rather a repeat of warcraft 3 that MOP again, atleast warcraft 3 was more than 15 years ago.
You want it to be better than the Horde that isn’t a good story. Having Anduin moralising everybody on why he is essentially christ on Azeroth is really bad story telling. I want to play the game i got invested in, not one where I get lectured by a 17 year old.
I was being pedantic and yes your right that wouldn’t be a good story. My point is that the Alliance can afford to actually fight a war and not have to worry about being morally wrong.
The Alliance needs to take a stance in where it wants Justice for it allies that have been hurt and punish its enemies.
Anduin would have us just forgive the horde and ignore their crimes. The Writers seem to feel that this is the first time we have “Broken the Cycle” yet the Alliance has been doing that for the Horde since warcraft 2. The Horde never changes, the characters and story need to recognize that and allow the Alliance to do something.
You assume Sylvanas will end up dead in anything less than a raid. I’d also point out Garrosh didnt die until the next expansion when he was warchief.
If they Alliance need to lose character it should not be at Horde hand. Certainly not as villians. And no, I dont want a repeat of Warcraft 3 especially considering by the end of the Alliance was nearly broken and on its last legs.
Too bad, you will get moralize on it. If you didn’t get the hint that this was always going to be the story direction of WoW since we are unlike to ever destroy a playable faction you never will.
Unfortunately they’re likely going to stick to pinning it all on Sylvanas so that they can say the Alliance still can get its justice by going after her and not touching the Horde. And rather than the Alliance realizing the Horde never changes, we will likely just get Val’sharah 2.0 to show Tyrande (again) that maybe the Horde (players) aren’t all that bad.
Oh boy yeah those Blizzard writers really gave us a satisfying conclusion to they giant war when Thrall comes out of nowhere saves the player and then basically cheats to defeat Garrosh in a one on one fight.
This is part of the reason I can’t ever really like thrall as a character anymore as for two expacs he basically comes in and kills the big bad leaving the players without any satisfaction.
I half expect them to do the same thing in shadowlands with Thrall basically beating Sylvanas one on one again.
It was a far better story atleast, I mean rebuilding a faction is just the writers deciding they care about doing it. I mean look at the Horde they basically went from handful of orcs that survived being shipped wrecked to controlling an entire continent.
If blizzard want to keep lecturing player base they can however considering the poor reception of this entire expac they can expect to lose more of the player base. You only represent one person of a large player base zerde and most people in this thread agree that Anduin needs to fail and be removed from high king as they are sick of his preaching.
Sadly yes, I mean they will also need to somehow justify PVP in the new zones as well so probably have the Horde attack the Alliance for reasons that will be ignored by the overarching story.
I wouldn’t expect the Alliance to get the Kill on sylvanas, probably be some combined effort of Tyrande and Thrall which will end with them both dying. Or maybe the Alliance will only get to kill nathanos while Horde get Sylvanas. (cause the writers won’t be happy until the horde come full circle again).