I don’t think she does. She’s not even rotten. Has not experienced undeath in the same way as the Forsaken. And hasn’t gone through their struggles.
You all liking her so much and not wanting her back is really suspicious too.
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She’s not even alliance. She’s the princess of Lordaeron.
They’re with the horde.
She was raised with Anduin on guard. She is first met in the Alliance zones. She’s Alliance.
She’s no longer the Princess.
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And baine gives that guy love letters. 
It’d be nice if Calia was alliance but she’s not. She’s not moody enough to be alliance. Too happy go lucky.
Alliance leaders like Tyrande and Jaina are mad at the world. Calia isn’t mad.
Ugh, I don’t even want to go into him and his problems.
Well good. Then that’d be the better option. She can be there.
And for good reason. They also are well rounded characters. Paint drying has more personality than Calia.
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Don’t go claiming you speak for the Horde. You certainly don’t speak for me, and I’ve played Horde since Vanilla as well.
I’m sick to death of everyone assuming the Horde must be villains because we’ve got the Orcs, we’ve got the Undead, and we have the edgelords that just can’t stop being edgy. That garbage is exactly that; garbage. Just so you all know, the Tauren were very much not okay with the idea that the Forsaken were doing what they were doing in Undercity and in EPL and other locales; the idea was that the Tauren were going to ‘fix’ their undead state and try to revive them back into full-on humans or at least get rid of their undeath-driven nihilism. That’s the only reason the Forsaken found any purchase at all in the Horde, because of the (perhaps misguided) empathy of the Tauren trying to make the world a better place, and for their efforts they find themselves spat at and put down because ‘how dare you try to dull my edge dumb cow’.
Calia happened because the alternative was the wholesale destruction of the Forsaken that should have happened decades ago. How the Tauren didn’t immediately flip to Alliance post-Teldrassil is astonishing. Hell, Wrathgate should have been a massive eye-opener and gotten a lot more living sentries posted in UC to make sure the Forsaken shaped up.
Oh but I can already hear ‘but what about Taurajo tho.’ To that, I have to say that there’s a massive difference an operation to destroy infrastructure while trying (with insufficient on-the-ground intelligence) to get civilians out of the blast zone, and just lighting up a tree you know houses a captial city with no effort to diminish civilian casualties.
The point is that, for the Forsaken, it was either get Calia to get the Forsaken to play nice with the rest of the world, or the Horde and Alliance both tag-team the Forsaken because the living world absolutely should be unwilling to tolerate another Shadowlands Incident.
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I don’t see why they need to in a game about war. Everything doesn’t need to be nice. And everyone doesn’t need to be nice. Especially since even villains now aren’t allowed to exist because they are always someone misunderstood who was just trying to save us from a bigger bad.
The Forsaken have always experimented on people and were always a little sketchy. Everyone having to be goody goody is boring as hell.
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Except the Forsaken continuing to be ‘hehe evulz’ makes the entirety of the Horde look like morons. It essentially becomes juvenile-grade comedy; Cue the Tauren druid going ‘Oh that rascally undead did another human experimentation, when will they learn? Too bad my oath to help protect life from this unnatural process just can’t apply here since, y’know, they wore the same color tabard as me on raid day’. And then Tauren get to be painted with the brush of ‘well your side does human experiments so you’re as evil as they are.’ Wow, what a great culmination of the Tauren protector-of-life fantasy.
The Horde is not evil, full stop. So evil acts should be stamped out as they’re found. And even from just a self-preservation standpoint, if your allies were responsible for an incident that endangered the literal afterlife of every living thing, including you, then your allies are actually an existential threat that you need to either contain or destroy.
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Not if what they are experimenting on are our enemies. It’s actually pretty helpful for winning conflict.
No but that doesn’t mean that everyone in the Horde needs to be completely clean and perfect either.
This is the major problem. The Horde being changed because of what the Alliance thinks of us. So now we have to hold hands and do the carebear stare. Everything feels like a Saturday morning cartoon now.
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No, it isn’t. Not at all. Forsaken ‘research’ hasn’t revealed anything about humanity that the Orcs didn’t already know through three wars. Not only that, the weapons the Forsaken keep devising also devastate the local wildlife and even the life essence of the region itself, something that is very much a no-no in Tauren society, Orcish society, even the Trolls look askance at such a practice. Yet, again, because they wear red, we can’t actually do anything about it despite it being a horrific position for the majority of the Horde’s founding races. 'Oh man, we outnumber them 3-1 and are technically their bosses, but we just can’t do anything about it ‘cause, uh, I dunno actually. But we just can’t fix it!’
I’ll settle for ‘not completely acting in opposition to allied interests.’
Again, the Forsaken don’t get to just say ‘oops our bad’ after almost annihilating the afterlife. Especially since, ironically, they would be the only ones not to suffer from it. Something had to fundamentally change at that point or, again, the Horde look like idiots because three deeply spiritual and ancestor-based races would have effectively allowed those afterlives to be destroyed.
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It’s not about discovery. It’s about torture and intimidation.
The Tauren can feel any way they do about it and should. That creates conflict, nuance and something more interesting than nothing. Peace all the time is unrealistic. And everyone getting along all the time is too.
Both of these have a vast history of brutality.
The issue was that Teldrassil was a civilian attack. If it were just enemies also in conflict, nothing would have been made of it.
They don’t even say that, which is good. Why should they? They were never meant to have humanity. They were just a decent ally to have because of their brutality. They did what was necessary.
Not even gonna get into the Shadowlands stuff because that all just needs retconned.
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Ah yeah, I too remember the Horde’s motto of ‘Strength and Honor’ meaning to kidnap civilians and subject them to horrific torture and painful deaths. The Tauren too are noteworthy supporters and practicioners of torture as well, evidenced by error 404 example not found.
Even Garrosh Hellscream just settled for humiliating Alliance deserters by keeping them in a pigsty while waiting for Alliance envoys to come collect them. A rare instance of Garrosh doing a not entirely-terrible thing.
There’s a difference with ‘you do things in a way I don’t totally approve of, but I can overlook our disagreement to work together’ and ‘this is wholly opposed to my culture and outlook and the only reason I’m not killing you is because a game rule won’t let me.’ Again, everything the Forsaken did spat in the face of the other Horde races. No Tauren would look at the experiments in Undercity and decide ‘well this is cool and good.’ Even when they raised arms against those encroaching or disturbing their lives, they ended the fight quickly and decisively or, if they’re captured, they’re brought to Orgrimmar or Thunder Bluff and typically either returned after some tense negotiations or executed if their crimes were grave enough.
That they’ve been working extremely hard to curb. Notice! Actual growths from the outlook of these people, instead of being held in ‘lol so evul’ stagnation like the Forsaken before Calia.
You’re right. That’s why Sylvanas made sure to kill as many civvies as possible, so she could send a message (and also serve her own interests). The Horde didn’t benefit from the mass death though, only Sylvanas and her Forsaken cult did. The Horde as a whole only suffered because it provoked the Alliance again and handed them another loss that simply didn’t need to happen.
A tool is only as useful as long as it doesn’t endanger its user. The Forsaken absolutely endangered the Horde with their stunts and, again, made the entirety of the Horde look like idiots that couldn’t self-regulate.
Until it is retconned, it happened. Three leaders, each with deep spiritual connections to those on the other side, were completely blind to what Sylvanas was trying to do and weren’t willing to move against her because ‘well she’s on our team, right?’ So the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls look like fools and hypocrites.
Thanks, what an ally.
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Not talking about civilian attacks. Referring to enemies. Civilians aren’t our enemies. The void, Legion, etc. are though.
Not even talking about the Alliance as a possibility.
Well then maybe that’s where they need to start giving Baine a backbone.
It’s gone back and forth over the years. Sometimes there is peace, sometimes not. The reason Garrosh even happened was because Thrall put him there because he knew that he would do brutal things to the Alliance. It’s a game about war. Not about making peace. That doesn’t mean it has to be war with the Alliance or civilians, but there will be other conflict. And you can’t daisy chain your way to a win in war.
Which is why that story and what came after was a huge mistake.
Unfortunately. Which is why they need to get better at nuance. Things shouldn’t be always good or always bad, but there is definitely an in between.
Nobody’s saying that, they’re saying that the last Menethil MURDERED EVERYONE.
They’re done. Put her head on a pike.
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Uh, Forsaken experiments weren’t targeting just Alliance soldiers, they absolutely got civilians into those X-frames when they could. Hell, even Horde members found themselves in the crosshairs more than once for nothing than going ‘hey maybe we shouldn’t be using this horrific pestilence that does far more harm than any possible good.’
The point is that Garrosh was able to somehow look at an Alliance trooper that did everything he would have found repugnant (surrendered, deserted) and still managed to not torture and kill them. Yet somehow Sylvanas and her lackeys had been failing that challenge since their inception. And the rest of the Horde somehow was completely impotent to stop it on their behalf.
Oh god you have no idea how much I’d love Baine and the rest of the council to boot the Forsaken from the Horde. Get Lor’themar to toss them into a Phantom Zone until they either figure out how not to be completely terrible or the Tauren finish the research necessary to cure the undead state.
Thrall put Garrosh in charge because he saw stars when he realized his best friend had an uncorrupted son. Then he ignored every warning sign from not just Garrosh’s actions but from his own friends like Thrall and Cairne because he wanted so badly to have Orgrimmar’s leadership free from the taint of their past and the Orcish legacy redeemed. That Garrosh decided ‘war is the only way’ was not why Thrall put him on the throne.
Again, maybe not cause an existential danger to your allies? That’s all I can really ask at this point from the Forsaken.
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I definitely don’t trust Blizz to not have her do a turn too. But even without that, I don’t feel like she fits. Overall shoe-horned characters are bad. They never really made an effort with her. And she should have been leading the Alliance undead, not our undead.
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Thrall put garrosh in charge because Metzen made him do it so they could fulfill the Alliance players’ dream by having them raze Orgrimmar a couple expansions later.
And under prior leadership the Horde caused an existential crisis that threatened the multiverse and resulted in the unwarranted damnation of a whole bunch of souls.
Maybe things should have a chance to progress beyond the now! Just like the Horde Council isn’t responsible for the Shadowlands Incident, Calia isn’t responsible for the Scourge.
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Already addressed. Read the thread. I’m not repeating myself for you.
I did read the thread; I’m not going back through the conspiracy theories that Blizzard has had it out for the Horde since, now by your words, TBC. Y’know, the one where Horde got the single-most popular race in the game to this day.
Has Metzen had it out for the Horde since Warcraft 1? After all, they won that war only to be set up to lose in the sequel! Tune in next week for the shocking answer!
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