I totally agree with that. And a lot of time you need some luck not being targeted by certain abilities. Again harking back to ICC (sorry) with Festergut and the Ooze/ loss of character control. If that happens during your CDs and Hero off the pull, you are totally screwed. If it avoids you all fight long, you are first.
Hence why we look at the AVERAGE and not outliers.
But you havenāt proven anything. Youāve literally made statements that are objectively false and acted like itās holy writ.
Oh my God, go to the warrior forum. I didnāt post 1700 times because Iām a troll, for Christās sake. This is like talking to a wall
Youāre 5/9. You donāt hit a hard boss until Mekka. Stop posturing.
No you donāt, youāve never done it.
Again. Healing parses. Do not. Matter. They are. A bad. Joke. Healing cannot be compared to damage. Please try and keep up, weāve been over this.
The majority is not always right. Didnāt you learn that in Uni?
Iām not trolling you Iām trying to help you understand and learn something you world five thousand blockhead
You have no relevant raid experience. Stop.
A 95% is not an outlier. I mean I donāt know what to say. Go to your class discord. Talk to an actually good player (not someone wiping on freaking Rastakan or who hasnāt raided since raids were a joke)
If you are playing your class optimally, you will reach 95%. The best of the best reach that with the best conditions and nearly perfect placement and movement. Just because Iām not raiding now doesnāt mean I didnāt spend hours every night in Ventrillo theory-crafting with Rawr and Simcraft with my guild. I know how it works and there is a lot more at play than you are describing.
Do YOU have any relevant experience? Because in MY relevant experience I DID actually reach 94-96% of my SIM regularly.
Also, post on your main. Done arguing with you.
I agree fire is pretty garbage right now for pve. However could us a buff or redesign. Im not great at fire to start with and honestly prefer arcane so i can turn my brain off for a bit while playing.
Hahahhahahahahaahahahaa.
Youāre irrelevant.
Thereās a lot more at play than a single person in this thread is describing. People are asking for buffs or calling mage weak that donāt go beyond normal. Itās pathetic.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/thunderhorn/talic#zone=21
I defy you to find āpadā in these logs. Yet look at that. Flat 99s.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/37523727?mode=detailed&zone=21#metric=dps
Or this one.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/thunderhorn/xeos#zone=21
or this one.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/37783180?mode=detailed&zone=21#metric=dps
Or this one.
You can get. 95-99. Without padding. You can get 90-99 by padding. You can get r1 without padding. You can get r1 by padding.
There are a lot more factors to it. You can get 75% by playing badly, or by being a good player having a bad pull.
So why take the risk of bad rng or bad play being the reason for the log, when you can look at guaranteed optimal play with a chance at pad.
Mages are heavily dependent on procs. It really can be feast or famine. Looking at only 95% and up doesnāt make sense for an accurate class balance analysis. Mages have more bell curve outliers than most classes, which is what may be allowing you to paint too rosey of a picture of the class as a whole. You arenāt looking at just the "goodā players, you are looking at the āgoodā players who got lucky with procs and mechanics and who may very well be cheesing to parse.
Also, looking at the overall data instead of gear brackets for Heroics isnāt informative. It has been universally accepted that mages currently have gear scaling issues. Issues that start showing in higher Heroic gear brackets. Which is why the guy above who linked the 400 range data was actually helping the discussion.
And why be so elitist? Am I not allowed to want my class to be competitive even though I am just a dirty AotC raider? You know, the 75%. A boss may not be a world first kill, but itās a world first for me. And as a DPS I am expected to do damage. Explain why I should be happy to work my butt off just to get stomped by my ranged bretheren overlords.
Mages are not balanced. We are poorly designed for modern raid content and it shows. And (to address some other posters) telling me itās OK because my class does decent in M+ content, which I do not enjoy at all, isnāt constructive either. I am a raider. I am not asking for the moon and the stars. I just want to feel like all the work I am putting in to my mage pays off. Currently, it does not.
I just leveled this guy the hard way and I can say weāre proc dependent (Iām frost) but not nearly as dismal to play as, say, Shadow Priest. Iām leveling a lightforged paladin now and she downs mobs still in the 50ās in 3-4 globals usually, I donāt think I was ever doing that as frost unless all my procs went off. I also bought enough gear for this guy to immediately go to heroic and LFR pretty much out the gate, so maybe thatās why it hasnāt felt as bad. Iāve only been capped a little longer than a week.
I absolutely agree. Frost Mages could also use more buffs.
Are you trying to prove something with this video?
Probably using that as ammo to prove that they donāt need buffing. not considering the fact that 110s kill 120s all the time and itās not some indication of Mages being OP or something.
Congrats. You just recently found out about how op any class of twink can be against a crappily geared 120 (a totally irrelevant point). Yay?
Youāve never thrown out a helpful heal, shield, or battle rez? All you do is focus on your DPS meter . . .
I donāt need to check if you raid mythic, I already know.
Again, you are glorifying a button press that happens once an hour and has been in the game for I donāt know how many expansions, and no cared about it because everyone brought a buff or could have it replaced.
If the buff is the only reason a mage is brought, there are serious problems.
Itās incredible how you begin your post by stating how you hate doing anything that isnāt DPS and seem to be arguing that Mage is the top support role.
Druids have an AOE silence.
During which you canāt move or DPS, and itās only helpful once ever 4.5 minutes. Itās stupidly worthless in PVP as usually the other person is just waiting for it to end and the mage prays some cd or blink will become available. Others have shields and non-stops heals to help, warlocks can self-rez.
Only available to Frost, does virtually no damage, and just works as an AOE slow, while others have an AOE stun, or spells like typhoon, to achieve something similar.
Basically every class and Spec has some method for moving quickly, and again if youāre main concern is that you spend 1 or 2 globules doing something to help keep you alive or help the team, rather than do DPS, then itās clear you donāt do mythic. You seem like the kind of player who when told to slow down by the raid leader just keeps up going anyway, or when someone needs a heal, you ignore them in hopes someone else will do it. Then you wipe and look at the DPS meters for a 45-second wipe to determine what went wrong.
To hear a druid say they never tank, heal, nor help with those aspects ever is just . . . depressing and speaks volumes on many different topics.
Because they have no survivability or shields. Once the other person catches up, itās over. No survivability or heals, the class needs extra DPS to compensate.[quote=āAnchor-runetotem, post:46, topic:157505ā]
You are arguing that the mage now has the same utility as the hybrid specs which negates a large part of your argument.
[/quote]
No, Iām saying mages have LESS utility and LESS DPS. You seem to be the person saying utility is on par. The passive once an hour buff is the main thing keeping mages in parties right now, and itās effect is the same regardless the player. No one wants to brought in for a button they press once an hour.[quote=āAnchor-runetotem, post:46, topic:157505ā]
And to wrap it all up, if you are playing at a level where every last bit of dps matters then yes, i am telling you to switch to a dps spec that performs.
[/quote]
and this is where the game dies. When you constantly telling players they made the wrong choice and must now spend time re-rolling just to play their preferred class, you are effectively causing a continued diminishing of subs because the only people happy are those who picked FOTM - the rest will just leave. Then, FOTM changes, and a new group of people leaves.
You canāt treat human beings like they are nameless pawns in a RTS game. [quote=āAnchor-runetotem, post:46, topic:157505ā]
Tank isnt in the greatest shape right now but i enjoy it anyway and vontinue to play it. Am i pushing stupid hi keys with it? No way. I will take something more suitable for the job.
[/quote]
I want you to imagine being a new player (the ones that increase sub numbers), who used their boost on a Druid, hearing they must now re-start because they canāt tank with the chosen class in their desired content.
Thatās a player who is going to FF14, or elswhere, not staying with BFA.
All of you arguments are simply asinine. If you dont even know why cone of cold is op as crap on blockade and claim aoe stun and typhoon do something similar when they are worthless on blockade then I cannot help you. I may not mythic raid but it looks like you dont raid at all. I am making cases for why mages are excellent picks using current content beyond int buff and mage food.
If Johnny NewSub didnt do any research into what classes excel at their desired content and waste their boost then that is on him. Johnny NewSub shouldnt be boosting anything expecting to run mythic raids. Its Johnny NewSub who comes into the forums and cries about how their preferred whatever cant do x, y, or z. Johnny NewSub is the guy I dont want in wow. Anyone who isnt willing to research their preferred,propective/chosen class and its viability in whatever end game content should not be playing that game. Im not saying they can learn everything from guides required to be proficient. Im saying they can learn enough to figure out if a chosen class can do what they want it to.
Well, if you canāt understand my arguments, which are largely on a meta level, than thereās little need discussing things with you. I wasnāt trying to state that another spell in a specific context is just as good; more generally that cone of cold isnāt an OP spell, which can find itās niche places, just like other spells like typhoon can find their niche place, and Iām not saying itās blockade. More generally, Iām saying mages arenāt ok just because cone of cold has a spot in a specific fight.
The comment regarding you raiding mythic was an understanding that you refuse to ever heal or tank, only DPS 100% of the time, which is the kind of thing I could see being acceptable in levels lower than mythic because shields and heals are less critical.
You are confusing two different things.
A person can research if they want to be a tank, healer, or DPS, and then beyond that, the playstyle and type of spells they can do. Like, the different healers in WoW are actually pretty well balanced because they all kinda serve a different niche. Like a resto druid and a holy priest both play differently and have different focuses, so players should try to find their play style.
These same players should also feel confident that the gameās content will be available to them regardless their class choice. Telling someone they canāt raid mythic cause they suck is very different from telling someone they canāt join regardless their skill level cause they choose class X.
Thatās why games constantly nerf and buff. They donāt offer class A, B, C, and D, but then say you can only reach the end if you play with A.
If WoW is seriously moving to a game where they have different DPS classes, but only expect half of them to be used or be viable at any give time, then they should simultaneosly be aware they are infuriating half their playerbase at any given time.
Finally, since we discussed Johnnynewsub, letās discuss JohnnyREsub, the person who came back and was playing a class that was doing just fine last tier, and for a couple expansions in general. Now itās doing horrible in the current tier, and rather than complain their class is no longer behaving accordingly, you think they should just shut up and re-roll?
These are the things that infuriate anyone playing something that isnāt FOTM when you endorse class over player, which incidentally means skill is irrelevant. Reality is people just leave rather than re-roll. Just compare the number of raiding guilds even at the begnning of BFA to now, and if you really wanna depress yourself, compare it to the beginning of legion.
Wow reading this entire thread has just about given me a headache
Pretty much every spec is largely reliant on procs.
Hmm. So the discord has no mention of this, Iāve certainly never heard it from anyone Iāve raided with. Do you have an article, or anything, showing it?
āI asked DrJay on his stream the other day and he says Frost scales very poorly.ā
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17624442294#post-8
āStats and scaling: The usual applies here; Frost hasnāt changed muchā¦This also means Frost is vulnerable to not scaling well over time, but if thatās the case then our viability can be protected with flat damage buffs when necessary.ā
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/9plmb0/patch_81_mage_community_feedback_megathread/
āBased on dps averages on warcraftlogsā¦ Warlocks (all) and Shadow priests scale above average. Fire/Arcane mages scale around average. Hunters, frost mage, and ele shaman scale below average. This doesnāt mean theyāll have the highest dps . This just means for each ilvl on average they get a greater boost in damage.ā
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/9vgtlh/firepower_friday_weekly_dps_thread/
Sources are of varying credibility, but pretty much sums up what people have been grumbling about elsewhere.
Also, if you click through the logs for BoD (both Heroic and Mythic, 75%), you can see that Frost mage (the only spec doing decent overall) is a little under the middle of the pack at lower item levels.
In Heroic, relative position starts dropping around 385 ilvl, takes a big dive at 388, and continues steadily downhill after that. It should be noted that the 385 ilvl is not a fluke of BoD, as this particular break point was also noted during Uldir.
In Mythic, starting at 400 ilvl (where the mage total for the bracket first breaks 1,000) all mages again start below middle, and go down from there. Fire seems to have a few good brackets, but frost continues to drop. By the time you get to 409, Mage has the bottom 2 specs, and 3 in the bottom 5, which pretty much holds steady until you get into elite levels.
This is the problem. The data is far too small to actually draw conclusions from. For the same reason that looking at stats in a raid in the first few weeks of itās release is ill-advised, thereās just not enough to go on.
Now, assuming frost does scale slower than other specs, two things. One, in the links you provided, two mentions of scaling not being a factor to be concerned about stand out. The first, you quoted. The second reads; āScaling isnāt really a concern in the game anymore as Blizzard is much more frequently doing tuning than they used to be.ā
A theorycrafter is quoted as saying;"there are only two things that dictate which spec outperforms the other, for any class
specs are tuned around how they scale, and theyāre (mostly) retuned each tier."
So currently there is hearsay from a few randoms, and some more substantial input from more prominent people. That said, I have yet to see this in practice. I could run an Advanced Sim with frostās profile, and see how adjusting the ilvl affects it.
Similar play was used to debunk the scaling myth around feral, fury, affliction, and a few others that Iāve been shown, or done myself. Scaling for the most part, hasnāt existed widespread since Wrath. A decent portion of specs still had significant āscalingā power throughout Cata and MoP, starting weak and finishing very strong, and even going into WoD. However, changes made in HFC, Legion, and now in BFA have largely erased scaling.
That, combined with more consistent tuning on Blizzardās part (whether people like it or not, itās a lot better than it used to be) essentially nullifies scaling as a factor of performance.
So, assuming frost does scale slower than other specs, itās both A; minor to minuscule, and B; not an overall factor.
Iāll tab this and shoot a message at Herus or Frosted later, see if they can offer me insight. Iām not active with mage, but I have an understanding of how stats work.
Pure DPS classes?
If you play Elemental Shaman and youāre not interested in melee dps or healing, elemental is also a pure DPS class.
Same goes for every other class.
I would argue that two raidsā worth of logs (Uldir, BoD) is plenty of data to draw conclusions from. At least enough to identify general trends, such as scaling with item level.
Except that they havenāt tuned mages yet.
The quote was from pre-8.1, where issues were noted, but the expectation was that buffs would follow where appropriate.
Agree on the links. I am not saying they are the strongest sources, but that is mostly a function of me not bookmarking every article/forum post I read. I was asked to provide some evidence of discussion, and I tried to dig some up.
That said, I donāt know how anyone looking at the trends in the log data could miss Frostās (and, to a lesser degree, the other mage specsā) relative decline in the statistics. Within each difficulty level, the raid is constant. Only the item levels are changing.
If I understand the issue with Frost correctly, it is that Mastery does not affect many spells, so as you gain more secondary stats, output from Mastery doesnāt keep pace.
Would be interested in hearing what they have to say.
However, I am not too hung up on the scaling thing, true or not.
My focus is much more short-term. Specifically, hoping for a tuning pass.