That seems like a pretty bad faith interpretation of my point
I did concede to have misinterpreted and expressed my gratitude but ok.
Ximothy makes a key distinction by framing his whole argument around his definition of what constitutes an Alliance/Horde character. And by his definition - which he constantly reminds the reader of - it stands. I have no issue with that.
There’s a reason it’s ‘Bolvar Fordragon’
This thing is not Bolvar Fordragon though.
I’ll grant - it’s possible that they present him as an entirely neutral figure,
One thing we can agree on that it is yet to be seen.
don’t give him a definite personality, don’t have him address any of his past or his relationships
Also, when it comes to Gazlowe- I still can’t see how people considered him effectively a Horde character compared to all these other neutral ones we’ve had over the decades.
Gazlowe has literally spent the past the past decade and a half sitting in the neutral city of Ratchet, as a representative of the neutral Steamwheedle Cartel faction, handing out neutral quests to both Alliance and Horde players.
It’s not like Alliance players have ever had a negative experience with him, and the only time Horde players meet him is when he’s doing contract work for the Horde by building cities/outposts.
His relationship with the Horde has always been based in business transactions. He only actually joins the Horde at the end of BfA when they offer to appoint him as CEO of the Bilgewater cartel, which is a major promotion compared to his previous position as middle management in Steamwheedle.
Gazlowe being seen as Horde has less to do with his character’s history, and more to do with the simple fact that he’s a goblin. No matter how neutral 90% goblins are, they’re little and green, with pointy ears and teeth, and can be pretty nasty, which puts them at odds with the Alliance’s classic fantasy aesthetic.
He gives Baine some zeppelins for free/discount during the Shattering novel. There were quests in Cata that had horde players kill Theramore soldiers. I think the guy built Orgrimmar as well.
If we’re only judging faction loyalty based on how they oppose the other side, then Velen might as well be neutral.
Your attitude perfectly illustrates the point that I and others are making. The fact that you can look at a character who is the former regent of Stormwind, unified Alliance general, surrogate father to the current Alliance High King, with a daughter who is currently fighting for the Alliance, and state that he “has not been Alliance affiliated for a long time” is mind-blowing.
We all get that he has not technically been a member of the Alliance since he became the Lich King. We understand that fact. We also understand that ALL of his affiliations were and continue to be with the Alliance. In terms of narrative, he is an Alliance character.
Posters on this forum: “it is BS that Bolvar isn’t helping the Alliance against the Horde.”
Also posters on this forum: “Bolvar is a totally neutral character.”
Edit: The only expansion that hasn’t heavily featured a supposedly neutral mentor figure drawn almost entirely from the Alliance narrative or an Alliance race is Mists of Pandaria.
TBC: Khadgar, Maiev
WotLK: Tirion, Darion
Cata: Malfurion, Thrall
MoP: Wrathion and various Pandas.
WoD: Khadgar
Legion: Khadgar, Velen, Illidan
BfA: Magni
SL: Bolvar
What has he done with or for the Alliance in recent times? Both in real-time and game-time?
“has not been Alliance affiliated for a long time” is mind-blowing.
Again, how so? Unless this logic is by sheer association. Because that’s a rabbit hole since factions don’t exist in vacuums.
We understand that fact.
You either don’t or are oddly hypersensitive since this
continue to be with the Alliance. In terms of narrative, he is an Alliance character.
is just not true. We don’t know what this character will do in his current state. I could be wrong, but given Blizzard’s storytelling, he could very well not say anything to his daughter, Anduin etc. The way Illidan barely interacted with Malfurion in Legion.
Posters on this forum: “it is BS that Bolvar isn’t helping the Alliance against the Horde.”
Who said this? I have not seen anyone say this.
Edit:
TBC: Khadgar, Maiev
Maiev and Khadgar are part of a few questlines among dozens so this one is a stretch.
Cata: Malfurion, Thrall
Disingenuous. Cata was definitely a Thrall* expansion; Malfurion featured in 2 zones.
*not that it really matters since he was fairly disconnected from the Horde anyway. But to pretend that malfurion had the same level of involvement as Thrall in Cata is just weird.
All for money. He asks you to sink those Alliance ships that are blockading his port. He was happily doing business with them until they turned on him because he was also willing to deal with the Horde.
But see, I can acknowledge that it doesn’t feel that way. If there were a bunch of quests where Alliance players had to work with Gazlowe as part of a business deal- like the kind the Alliance has apparently been making with him for years- it wouldn’t feel like he’s Neutral or Alliance friendly.
He pretty much is. Horde players teamed up with Velen in Legion. Saved the Exodar and everything.
If y’all have an issue with the narrative device of a neutral character, that is one thing. If you want to see more “Horde” characters, I can get behind that concern too. I even whole-heartedly agree that Horde characters follow Alliance ones much more often than Alliance characters follow Horde ones. (outside of following Thrall on my Alliance characters, I am actually drawing a blank)
But to twist the lore at hand to fit some narrative when we just don’t know where the story will go, and scream that character X is totally Alliance, well I just don’t know what to say to that.
I’m not saying he doesn’t deal with both sides. I’m saying the man has a bias towards the horde.
Following the death of tauren leader Cairne Bloodhoofin the Orgrimmar arena and the insurrection of the Grimtotem tribe that followed, Gazlowe was approached by the shaman Stormsong, a Grimtotem defector who sided with Cairne’s son Baine. Baine’s plan called for massive amounts of explosives and other weapons, the technical and martial skill of mercenaries, and three zeppelins to transport troops into Thunder Bluff. Stormsong gave Gazlowe an enormous sum, borrowed from the coffers of Theramore: one large payment, and an extra, smaller payment to make it a rush job. Atypically for a goblin, Gazlowe (albeit a little reluctantly) only accepted a fistful of the extra gold as a gesture of respect to Cairne and his son and provided the armaments requested in four days.
When has a goblin given a discount to the alliance?
Oh he totally has a bias. All these “neutral” characters do.
But Apparently Kadhgar’s, Maive’s, Tirion’s, Darion’s, Malfurion’s, Velen’s, Illidain’s, Magni’s, Bolvar’s history and personal, political, and economic ties to the Alliance and Alliance characters don’t matter and they still qualify as “neutral” and nobody should feel any kind of way about following them as Horde.
But because Gazlowe reluctantly gave a grieving Baine a discount on a job that one time (while still working with the Alliance), it makes him a Horde partisan that Alliance players couldn’t reasonably have been expected to deal with as a “neutral” character… despite having done just that for years.
Thrall featured in one zone, 1 dungeon and 1 raid; It’s still a higher involvement, but calling Cata the ‘Thrall Expansion’ is kind of pushing it.
Danuser explicitly says that the interaction between Bolvar and his daughter is an important story in Shadowlands during his interview by Taliesin. Even if he actually doesn’t care in the slightest for her (unlikely) that is still going to be an alliance-centric story.
When you start paying our sub fees then you can decide if we get left out of the game.
I think it is worth mentioning that they have already said Talia will be relevant in Shadowlands.
I see the issue as less that Bolvar is ‘Allaince’ and more that the Horde feels left out in these world saving activities. We seem to only interact with our faction when it is either playing up or trying to clean up disasters it created in the first place. We aren’t even asking for Alliance characters to be left out but just for the horde to get decent representation.
All these neutral characters are complete strangers to horde player with little relevance. Bolvar is some guy sitting on a cold throne. We haven’t dealt with his family or his history. He is a stranger. Magni was the same. Khadgar is a nice guy but all his friends and background are to do with the Alliance. We don’t see anyone who came from our side ever representing and it makes us feel tacked on to the story and left out.
Little things would help. Back in Legion I made a comment that if they had a little holographic display of Saurfang indicating he was leading the defense against the legion and providing Khadgar battle reports on how the conflict was progressing across Azeroth it would have made a huge deal because we would have seen one of our guys being proactive and in a important role. When Baine said ‘we drove back the legion!’ in the final cutscene, my first response was 'no you didn’t. None of you were there. I was the only one doing anything.
We just want at least some connection to these characters before they start fist bumping us like we are suddenly their best friends. It feels so off and like they haven’t even bothered to work our side into the story properly. It is why in Legion I felt less like a Horde player in an neutral story and more like a neutral mercenary in an Alliance story. I mean I had Velen and Tyrande having deep heart to heart discussions with me for heaven’s sake.
So far, the only saving grace in Shadowlands seems to be that, at least for a short while, Vol’jin and Bwonsamdi will be actively helping out. I am holding out Talanji might have some relevance too.
Bolvar was no longer a Alliance Character when he died at the Wrathgate and became the New Lich King turned Leader of the Forsaken Knights of the Ebon Blade Faction now.
I know there’s often some confusion about using the term Forsaken = free willed undead, but that’s not strictly true. While Forsaken can be used as a racial term, those who do still have some connection to the faction of Forsaken.