Bolvar is "the Magni" of Shadowlands

Lore Story Forum
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I’d argue that the preponderance of Alliance-affiliated neutral figures and organizations comes from the faction’s root purpose of representing the identifiable group for the assumed player to relate to and see as themselves, the ‘Self.’ Since this Self is idealized normalcy, and part of being ‘normal’ is claiming the position of being neutral and unbiased (and the ability and right to identify all that IS weird and and biased), we end with tons of Alliance-associated themes in WoW’s mentor figures, shared expansion capitals, and important organizations.

TL;DR: part of the Alliance’s identity is to be normal, part of being normal is that you’re seen as, well, ‘the norm,’ therefore organizations and individuals intended to appeal to players cross-faction will tend to originate from the Alliance since if it’s normal it’s therefore assumed to be also seen as natural/neutral by both halves of the playerbase.

edited footnote/disclaimer: also yeah I don’t think it’s healthy to base the game’s factions around Self and Other like this for reasons that should be very very obvious especially if you click that link.

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I think that’s kind of the reason it’s hard to have conversations about this stuff between Horde and Alliance fans? Because most neutral content in the game, since at least Wrath (Cataclysm and Pandaria being the only exceptions, but Cata wasn’t really ‘horde themed’ so much as it had an orc around, and Pandaria was just dope) has had a distinctly Alliance… flavor’s too strong a word. Shall we say ‘mouthfeel’?

Like, I don’t blame Alliance players for not getting it, I really don’t, because it’s business as normal for them. You probably didn’t think about how weird some of the Order Halls were for Horde players - why would you? Paladin order hall, order of the silver hand, light’s hope chapel, that all seems like it checks out. Rogue’s whole order quest is about saving Stormwind? Yeah, why wouldn’t it be? Priest is a Draenei-themed naaru temple? Well, that just makes sense. Shaman’s been stripped of all spiritualism, ancestor worship, rituals, reverence, voodoo, what have you, and now we’re just talking to the elemental lords like we’re placing a phone call to upper management? Wasn’t it always like that? An entire zone dedicated to Night Elf and druid lore? Cool, I’ve leveled alts in Ashenvale, that’s the type of thing that’s normal to have in the game. Invading Argus with the draenei for the final battle with the Burning Legion - well, that just makes sense, doesn’t it. It’s not like the orcs have a personal stake in that battle - wait, do they? Having Magni be the speaker for Azeroth? It’s cool to have him back, and taking orders from the former king of the dwarves is normal, right? Right?

I could go on. I think this also contributes to the perception that Alliance doesn’t get as much ‘Alliance content’ in the same way that Horde gets ‘Horde content’, because ‘Alliance content’ feels exactly the same as neutral content because it is, functionally, the same, because Warcraft lore is seen primarily through an Alliance lens. ‘Alliance content’ is just neutral content that the Horde doesn’t get to do, where the bad guys are cartoonish parodies of horde races instead of demons or undead or whatever.

I don’t blame Alliance players for not noticing when the Horde’s not around. They have no idea what it looks like when we are.

Drakyn, you ruddy legend, you post nothing but hits.

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Like Blizzard, my writing consists of simply rewording the same two or three things.
And given that

is a less circuitous way of saying what I was trying to get at, also like Blizzard I can’t claim I’m that good at it.

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I like your post overall but these two points just seem like backhanded compliments/insults whether you meant it or not.

I don’t blame Alliance players for not noticing when the Horde’s not around. They have no idea what it looks like when we are.

I mained Alliance since I started playing WoW in 2008 but feelings of alientation from the faction’s central narrative due to how human-centric and generic-Tolkien/high-fantasy it was lead me to restarting as a Horde character in Legion. And for the most part, it’s a better fit and I wonder if I ought to have made the switch sooner. The generic fantasy stuff appealed to me as a 13 year old; I am in my late 20s now, and the Horde is just more interesting overall.

Trust me when I say that Alliance players are not total dolts. I would have been fine (in case anyone wants to engage in the tired “You’re not really a Horde player!” olympics) - and I am sure many Alliance players would have been fine if say Ebonhorn became the world’s speaker.

I feel like you’ve hinted it in your post that the onus seems to be on the story team and not the players in this perception of the content.

Which is where I think the conceit of all these “Bolvar is too strongly Alliance still!” posters lie (not saying you). I don’t think he’s Alliance, I don’t think Alliance players think he’s Alliance. He is overwhelmingly the former LK. Now if the narrative involves him having moments with Anduin, I will stand corrected in my view here.

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Maybe it’s because his chosen replacement waged war on the alliance, along with villains being focused on defeating him more than others (Staghelm as an example).

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Obviously? I don’t imagine that Alliance players are like, some other type of person to me. You don’t get dumber when you click ‘Finish’ on a human paladin. I’ve played more endgame content on Alliance than Horde, my IRL friends all play Alliance, I unlocked Nightborne on an Alliance character. It’s not about how smart you are, it’s about what is and isn’t seen.

People who haven’t spent a significant time playing Horde, who aren’t attached to the Horde narrative, tend not to notice when content is distinctly ‘Alliance’ flavored, because 90% of the content in this game is Alliance flavored, deals with Alliance themes, Alliance locations, Alliance npcs, feels like Alliance content.

Say you make an Alliance character, and do all the content in the game with them. Just make a meal of it, do everything, every single thing, every quest in every zone, patch content, campaigns, every dungeon, every raid. How much time do you think that Alliance character is going to spend in orc villages (that they aren’t burning down)? How much time are they going to spend dealing with loa? How many trolls will they meet? How many quests are they going to take from Forsaken NPCs who are surrounded by other Forsaken NPCs?

Now do the same on a Horde character. Everything, all the content. How much time did that Horde character spend in human towns, taking quests from night elves, from draenei, following around Alliance racial leaders? Probably a lot more. Like, an order of magnitude more. How could that not cause a disconnect of perception?

Also? Bolvar is an Alliance character. I’m sorry, he just is. People above me have outlined it better, and nobody seems to have any counterargument other than ‘he hasn’t been literally a member of the political organization called the Alliance for a long time’, which is an intensely facile and flawed argument. Gazlowe was always a Horde character, even when he wasn’t literally a member of the Horde, Bolvar is an Alliance character. He only knows Alliance characters, only the Alliance has ever meaningfully interacted with him, he is an Alliance character. It’s not about him being human - Tirion, for all that the Argent Crusade could have done more to incorporate Horde themes, was a neutral character. I didn’t mind following him around.

Exactly.

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Maybe. I think “neutral Thrall” could have been handled in ways that would have made him more palatable to Alliance players, starting with having him sit out for an expansion or so before going neutral. And I’m sure Garrosh didn’t help anything, as you say. But the lesson Blizzard seems to have taken from it is that they should never have another Horde-adjacent neutral questgiver again.

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I can’t speak for all fans, but I would’ve been fine working with him during Wrath, or any expansion that didn’t involve an intense faction war.

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Poor Bolvar. Poor Lich King (my favorite character), sigh.

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Okay. It just seemed like en element of “D’aww, silly Alliance player, doesn’t know any better” to me, but maybe that is just me. Thanks for clarifying either way though as per this:

Now do the same on a Horde character. Everything, all the content. How much time did that Horde character spend in human towns, taking quests from night elves, from draenei, following around Alliance racial leaders? Probably a lot more. Like, an order of magnitude more.

Also? Bolvar is an Alliance character. I’m sorry, he just is. People above me have outlined it better

I disagree and I don’t think they have outside of usual SF smuggery. It’s just been overreaction and snark TBQH.

which is an intensely facile and flawed argument.

How is Bolvar of the DK Order Hall anything like his incarnation from Classic and TBC outside of his character name? That’s an “intensely facile” argument.

To conclude, I’ll say that if Blizzard renegs on his Legion/BFA characterization, then perhaps the "he is blatantly alliance!"have some legitimacy.

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Keep in mind that not everybody has played the DK campaign.

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I personally have not either. But the content is there. And it seems disingenuous to use that as a pillar to say that he is clearly Alliance, not neutral etc.

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What I’m saying with it is that Horde DKs are the only Horde PCs who have actually interacted with the guy since he became LK, and there were very few chances for them to interact with him before he put the helm on. There’s no shared history with him. While Alliance PCs likely interacted with him quite a lot when he was still human, and have just been palling around with his daughter as well.

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There’s two Bolvars - Bolvar the Alliance Paladin and Bolvar the Lich King.

As a Horde rogue, I’ve never interacted with either version of the character. As a WoW player, I know that Bolvar the Paladin was the guy in charge of Stormwind up through Wrath (until Varian returned). He raised Anduin and now has a daughter who’s being built up as a possible love interest for Anduin. All I know about Bolvar the Lich King is that he had some minor dialogue with my DK alt during Legion . Nothing really substantial about what he’s been doing for the past few years - mostly telling me to go round up some champions for him. Oh, and the cinematic video shows that he kinda sucks at fighting, so he’s not quite the LK Arthas was.

So, I have more knowledge and background information about him as the paladin than the Lich King. And, as a result, I conclude that he’s more of an Alliance character than a neutral character.

Now, this could change if they present him as actually neutral and with no connections to the Alliance; however, it’s pretty much a given that they will drag his daughter into the story, and Anduin as well. And that will ruin the neutrality angle.

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I understand the annoyance/distaste at following around “Alliance” characters. As someone that really isn’t into the “noble human” fantasy to the point of finding Kul Tiras questing unbearable - and usually the neutral/Alliance character IS human - I get how obnoxious 4+ years of Khadgar must have been followed by 3 years of Magni, former king of Ironforge.

But using that as fodder against his character now is odd and does not check out if they go with this being a new character - which so far I think they have? Can anyone comment on this?

There’s no shared history with him.

Exactly, there should not be anyway. This is a new entity that very few have interacted with so far. After all, Bolvar Fordragon is dead.

While Alliance PCs likely interacted with him quite a lot when he was still human

Those that started after Wrath will not really know Bolvar the paladin, to give some meta perspective to this thread.

palling around with his daughter as well

The daughter of Bolvar Fordragon, not the entity that was until recently wearing the Helm of Domination.

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You and Drakyn did a great job of explaining this phenomena.

Thank you.

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What are you basing this on? Pessimism/cynicism at the storytelling capabilities of the story team?

Because Magni does not really say much* about his past, his brothers, Ironforge, or the Alliance.

*I’m being generous here; he says nothing outside of his annoying Dwarf accent that signifies him to be a dwarf.

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That seems like a pretty bad faith interpretation of my point, but I guess tone is pretty hard to convey over text.

Ah, yes, the classic ‘nuh-uh’ defense. Scroll up and look at Ximothy’s post and explain, point by point, why he’s wrong, or don’t say that there’s no good arguments in this thread, nope, none here, take my word for it.

I don’t know, I feel like a character’s relationships, history, and name recognition kind of matter. There’s a reason it’s ‘Bolvar Fordragon’ we’re following around and not ‘Stippy the Clown, the magic Shadowlands ghost nobody’s ever heard of’.

I’ll grant - it’s possible that they present him as an entirely neutral figure, don’t give him a definite personality, don’t have him address any of his past or his relationships, in which case, I’ll admit, like Magni, he wouldn’t be an incredibly Alliance-centred character.

Instead, like Magni, he’d be soul-crushingly boring. Those are the only two ways I see this going, and I don’t like either.

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They went out of the way to build Taelia up as a character and specifically make her Bolvar’s daughter right before the expansion in which Bolvar plays a major role. They also made sure to have Anduin interact with her a few times, both expressing interest in her but not wanting to talk about her father with her. They’re not going to do all of that and then do nothing with the connection between the three characters.

And, looking at your edit, that’s why Magni worked. The most he did with the Dwarves was have Brann accompany him to Uldir - which is fine because Brann has been neutral for several years as well. What would not have worked was to have Moria be a part of the story.

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Bolvar is only neutral until his baby girl Taelia shows up.

He wouldn’t side against his own daughter, especially now being free of the helm.