Crazy assumption, since even SIMs are showing BM behind for more than 15% in perfect equal conditions.
Agree.
If you put around 90+ parses on the fight, and Boomkin/Warlock do less than 80, sure. Otherwise, not even close.
Which sims are you using? I’m looking at real logs. Specifically Heroic Castle Nathria and any M+ keys higher than a 10. BM Hunter is under represented above M15 and Mythic CN, so not enough data to make a determination from those alone.
I find sims to be suspect in general. They’re great for determining which piece of gear is better for you, but “expected dps” numbers they give are rarely correct. If you get a lucky string of procs, you should sim considerably higher. If you get unlucky, considerably lower.
That being said, I’m not trying to say BM is fine. Far from it. Two Hunter specs are at the very bottom of the game right now and the third (Marks) is going to join us in the bottom half today when the “fix” to double Wild Spirits procs hits them.
I’m just saying BM is most likely going to get stronger and stronger as stats climb. Posting that BM is 30-40% the top meta classes doesn’t help, because it becomes a ‘the sky is falling’ type of complaint. Too much exaggeration will just get ignored or laughed at.
Side note about Sims:
I just ran a sim of my character while typing this post. It says my expected DPS is 5,008, yet I consistently do more than that. Most tank and spank bosses I pull closer to 6k dps, which is 20% higher than how it sims.
The first thing I notice about the sim is that it lists Kill Command as my most damaging ability at 17% of my dps. That’s not even close in actual gameplay. Kill Command is about 11% of my actual dps. The number one spot belongs to Bite/Claw, because I add that as a pet focus dump to all of my abilities.
The pet UI sucks and our pets will often attack with full focus for several seconds before using Bite/Claw. By adding it to every macro, it becomes my most damaging ability.
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I am seeing an interaction between pvp trinkets and pets mentioned offhand as a fix coming down the 9.0.5 pipeline but I don’t see it in the patch notes.
Will pets now benefit from the 40% versatility bonus in instanced PvP? Can someone point to where blizzard ever mentioned this?
Was this ever verified as being an actual thing? Our pets inherit our stats, so if your Versatility is increased by 40% theirs should be by default.
I know some people were making this assumption when our pets were getting instagibbed in PvP, but I think they just nerfed pets in general.
And you’re again wrong. BM is scaling worse than other classes, and again you can just SIM numbers and look at it.
Well, you don’t know how to SIM. You may be SIMing patchwerk and comparing to your cleave battles, you may be forgetting to correct adjust raid buffs, etc. It looks very obviously that you don’t fully understand how SIMs work and how to properly use it.
This is literally the reality, one just need to look at the mythic logs. And no, I’m not saying that your point about PI is wrong, but it is what it is. Literally around 40%.
Typical response. If anyone disagrees with you, they clearly don’t know what they’re doing. Am I right?
I’m well aware of how to sim. No matter what criteria you use, I do substantially better than what it shows on the sim. What’s worse is that the sim assumes I have every buff available, when I usually do not.
Raidbots clearly uses default Blizzard actions to determine their sims. Pet UI is a serious issue, however, so threading pet focus dumps will net you some serious gain. As far as I know, Raidbots doesn’t consider how macros can improve DPS.
I would love to see you prove that, SIMing a Target Dummy SIM fight and proving you do “substantially better” with a real dummy 5 min long fight. But I doubt you will prove your claims, because they are, as you say, typical responses, and probably lies.
After checking WarcraftLogs, I’ve come to the conclusion that nobody should listen to you. You average a parse of 81.6, which means you’re a mediocre Hunter at best. I parse at 95.9, which would explain why I see better results than you do.
Have you forgot we can actually look at YOUR logs?
Your “average” in Heroic is LOWER than mine, you have 81.7 with only ONE log doing more than 90 parses (in council).
My “average” is 90.8, most fights I do 90+ pareses while you do less, and you don’t have any 97 parse.
Also, I’m way ahead of you regards Ilvl parses, where your “average” is a joke.
You know, the lies need to stop at the moment one can check your LOGs… LMAO.
What kind of compulsive dishonest liar would pretend we can’t look at your logs and compare? You have serious issues…
I’m going to guess you aren’t trusted to deal with mechanics in your guild. When I raid, I’m one of the core group that is trusted with mechanics. I don’t get to sit there and tunnel dps while everyone else deals with mechanics around me. Considering your mythic+ parses, I wouldn’t trust you with that responsibility either.
Talk about intellectual dishonesty…
You can guess whatever you want, numbers speak for itself.
Liar.
YOU parse 81.7 average (meaning that by your own definitions YOU ARE mediocre).
I parse 90.8 average.
Stop trying to find excuses for your failures and your blatant lies.
Mythic+ Best Perf. Avg
Finglon - Azralon = 81.6; Kills Logged - 27
Cognition - Thunderlord = 95.9; Kills Logged - 205
Heroic Castle Nathria Best Perf. Avg
Finglon - Azralon = 79.2; Kills Logged - 75
Cognition - Thunderlord = 81.7; Kills Logged - 25
Who’s the liar?
You’re just looking to pick a fight with Finglon. He has good points but you come in with an immediately disrespectful comment of, “You pars is this much so, you aren’t good and can’t talk about BM hunters.” You’re an instigator and a problem starter Cognition. That’s the true meaning of a troll. A lot of people are telling people, “you’re a troll,” when they didn’t do anything to be considered a troll. It’s just a way to shut them up and ban the from the forums. You, Cognition, you are a true troll.
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Did you read the entire thread? We had a valid conversation about numbers, then he changed the tone of the conversation by saying I didn’t know how to sim rather than simply explaining why he believes sims support his assertion. It all went downhill from there. If he wants to attack my ability to use a sim, I’ll attack his logs. It’s all fair game now.
It’s a bit of both. Yes BM numbers will be lower. But currently a lot of top BM parses are held by current MM hunter main switching spec for reclears. You can’t push a spec to it’s limit if you do 1 meme reclear with it for quick parses. That’s not how it works
You’re for sure the dishonest one here, since you don’t have any mythic parse to compare with me, we should be comparing only the heroic logs, obviously.
How can you call me mediocre when my raid logs are way better than yours, and you don’t even have any mythic progression to compare with mine?
Also, it is very clear that I don’t care for M+ (27 logs), while it is your main goal (200+ logs).
You’re fooling no one, all the data is very clear for anyone who wants to check.
That is your average in raid, so you’re saying you’re also a mediocre hunter no one should listen to? What a joker.
Stop trying to push my early mythic castle attempts to lower my average, you don’t have mythic progression so we OBVIOUSLY should look only at what we both have (heroic progression) to compare performance.
Yes, obvious troll is obvious.
Accept that my raid logs are way better than yours, especially when we look at Ilvl parses. You’re fooling no one… LMAO.
So, you don’t care for m+, therefore that shouldn’t be considered. But I don’t care for raiding and do a bare minimum, but that should be held against me? Hypocrite.
Comparing raiding parses is an exercise in futility, because you have no clue what the person was responsible for. Did they die early, because healers couldn’t keep up? Was that person responsible for dealing with mechanics that affected dps?
One of the main factors in BM hunters parsing low in raid logs is our mobility and the fact that our pets continue to do damage while we run mechanics. Most guilds understand this and assign BM hunters to those tasks. The lack of representation of BM hunters in Mythic Raiding is lack of burst, which we both agreed was an issue.
In Heroic raiding, BM Hunter rank depends on the fight. Some fights are great for BM, like Sun King. Other fights are terrible for BM parses, like Artificer, as we’re usually the ones running seeds. BM really falls behind on fights like Sludgefist, where huge burst windows are make or break on pillars. BM lacks burst and is quickly outclassed by burst heavy classes.
It’s also important to recognize that certain mechanics in CN lend themselves to high parses from DoT classes. Multi-dotting the Council of Blood can pad the meters, but most of that damage is wasted. They start off doing insane damage when all three bosses are up, but it drops off considerably as each boss dies.
Mythic+ dungeons, on the other hand, is a smaller group where everyone has to contribute to mechanics. These parses are going to be a much better indicator of individual skill than raiding parses.
In the end, my entire point in this thread is not to say BM Hunters are fine. They clearly aren’t. Burst needs to be fixed and damage needs to be increased. But 30-40% is based on a misinterpretation of the data. Shadowlands content just lends itself well to DoT classes overall. Melee classes are dominating PvP, but don’t do well in raiding/m+. BM is stuck in a position of being low man on the totem pole in all aspects of the game.
You’re the hypocrite one here, since YOU was the one to start looking at my logs to call me mediocre due to my 81.6 parse, but YOUR heroic raid parse is 81.7 while mine is 90.8…
The mere fact that you can’t understand this says to me that your problem may have something to do with cognitive ability.
I don’t care about M+, and I always do it with low gear friends to carry them to raid as soon as possible. Simple and verifiable truth.
I don’t need a wall of text to try to justify 81 parse in M+ as much as you do for your raid failures. Also your “arguments” are so weak it is laughable.
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Well, you will be happy to hear BMs got a stealth buff in PvP now that the PvP trinket set ability applies to your pets.
BM Hunters excel at mechanics. Our pets continue to do damage while we run mechanics. If you’re parsing over 90 in fights with assigned mechanics, it’s clear that you aren’t the one assigned to those mechanics. You’re essentially just DPSing the boss the entire time while other people pick up the slack.
On fights like Huntman, parsing high makes it clear a person cares more about meters than raid success. Using cooldowns on Shades for the big numbers, even though Shades die fast and cooldowns should be used on the boss.
Parsing high on Artificer, makes it clear that person isn’t running seeds, despite the fact it’s a job tailored to BM Hunters. Parsing high on SLG means they’re probably not fetching anima. Parsing high on Council means there is a lot of multi-targeting going on, despite the fact remaining bosses return to full health when one dies.
Raid parses are also highly affected by RNG. If you have a good fight where you aren’t targeted by mechanics, you can parse much higher. The fact that you’ve done considerably more CN fights than I have means you likely have had more opportunities to get lucky with RNG. If we look at median parse, we’re both sitting at exactly 73.4. Same applies to M+ dungeons, where my median is 74.6 and yours is very close at 68.1.
That being said, I apologize for calling you mediocre. However, I still adamantly refute your claim that BM is 30-40% behind the meta for the reasons I outlined above. We absolutely need some attention, but insisting we’re that far behind is going to get the class ignored as everyone sees it as a Chicken Little outcry. As it stands, 10-12% behind is still a considerable amount that needs to be fixed.