Blizzard you FAILED. Worst Class Design in the Game's History. Part II

Community General Discussion
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After 869 Upvotes, the last thread hit post limit.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172?page=1

I wanted to bring this thread back now that Blizzard is apparently handing out surveys to see what exactly they did wrong.

Previous post:
I had problems with certain elements of MoP Class design, namely the new talent trees. But all of my gripes back then are just completely trivial in light of what's come since.

Can this company just realize that they dropped the ball in WoD and classes really haven't been fun since then?

5.4 Class Design should be used as a starting point for abilities/talents going forward.

I'm sick of having niche spells taken away, I'm sick of having baseline utility scrapped and handed back as a talent, I'm tired of my class being reinvented to be completely unrecognizable from what it was when I rolled the character.

Just go back. Don't try to "improve" this mess, don't "iterate" on it. You've been trying that since 6.0, and it's still complete garbage.


To expand upon the above:
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.

All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.

I don't want my class to be a barebones hollow shell of its former self, just so you can put me on a treadmill to grind out abilities or passives that I should have baseline at max level.

It's simply not fun, it's not interesting, and the game is worse off for it.

The best case scenario is that you strike a very difficult balance and manage to patch over SOME of the gaps in my class without making certain traits mandatory. You've yet to strike that balance, and you really should stop trying.

Azerite traits specifically constitute a failure at a foundational level. I know people have hopped off the "Azerite Gear" train since you've added vendors and put in SUPER INTERESTING TRAITS (More on that later), but it's inherently linked to modern class design, and thus deserves scorn.

The traits themselves are stuck in an odd position where they NEED to make classes more interesting, but are limited in how interesting they can actually be. There's a hard ceiling on what Azerite traits can do, simply because they're limited to a single slot, and Blizzard doesn't want any specific trait to feel mandatory.

You're trying to strike a balance between two things that are actually mutually exclusive.

Beyond that, has anyone taken a look at the datamined 8.1 Azerite traits? They're extremely boring. Take the Unholy one, for example: You have to pay attention to position when popping Dark Transformation to get AoE damage.

Real interesting, right? Paying attention to positioning when popping a cooldown is going to make up for the lackluster mess the spec has been for a while.

tl;dr: Azerite Gear/Artifact Traits and Pruning are a mistake. They haven't made the game better, they've made the game worse. Classes are not more enjoyable, or more balanced now. They're less enjoyable and balance is a joke (Ask shamans!)

Just. Go. Back. Stop it with this. You've been trying "pruning" since WoD, where class design was bad. You've been trying auxiliary systems that complete classes since Legion, where class design was bad. I don't want to grind to play my character, I'll happily grind rep, or attunements, but I don't want to grind so my class isn't completely uninteresting (Spoiler alert: Even after grinding, it's still not fun to play)

Part II Good Takes Hall of Fame:
10/27/2018 04:58 PMPosted by Suhuy
I miss feeling like the class first and the spec second. In Legion they did pruning in the name of class fantasy, but many classes had shared spells that were made spec specific. This feels bad. I miss flame shock as enhance, poisons for sub and combat. Specializing shouldn't mean you lose some of the base tools of your class.
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Completely agree, classes are the MOST important part of an mmo. I used to to not be able to decide on a main because all the classes were so fun (which is the most fun?). Now I cannot decide on a main because all the classes are so boring(which is the least boring?).

I have been making posts too to bring back MoP class design.
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I read your post in the original thread, and I have to say this I agree with all of your points. I loved my destro lock in MoP ever since they fired Xelnath they have done everything they could do undo what he did, and they even brought back soulfire. I didn't participate in the first thread, but I'm going to here.

Edited to add this is the first time I've seen the thread, I'm sad that I missed out on the original.
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10/27/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Volchangar
Completely agree, classes are the MOST important part of an mmo. I used to to not be able to decide on a main because all the classes were so fun (which is the most fun?). Now I cannot decide on a main because all the classes are so boring(which is the least boring?).

I have been making posts too to bring back MoP class design.


This is pretty much where I'm at with regard to "picking a main."

I don't think that people understand class design is the single most important aspect of this game.

Classes are the vehicle through which you interact with all other forms of content. If your class isn't fun, the enjoyableness of the content you're doing will be poisoned as well.

To put it another way, it doesn't really matter how pretty the view is, if you're looking through a cracked window.
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10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad

Agreed.

Taking things away then giving them back in the form of a choice between other things isn't even subtle, they just expect us to accept it. It's bad.

I will say that of the initial pruning prior to WoD was fine as some abilities were outright useless or had been replaced by better versions.

I will also say that MOST specs weren't really notably impacted by the WoD pruning. Warriors got it the worst, while Elemental Shamans got -more- interesting than MoP, for example.

The shuffling around of talents with abilities we used to have has been more prevalent in BfA than any other time, and it definitely feels bad.

10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.

I agree with Ion on this one. Actively encouraging people to stand in the bad when it's not a fight mechanic is not ideal, and it's even worse for berserker stance since the healers have to deal with that garbage, unlike cheesing AMS. Tank Vengeance was the same thing, and it too got removed because it was bad design.

10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.

Disagree. Changing the specs up every so often keeps things fresh, If everything just stayed the same +/- a generic spell every expansion, it'd get stale. For every person who quits over "too much change" there's another who would have quit because they got bored of no change.

That, and overhauls like Outlaw and Survival were necessary for the sake of actually having varied spec choices. Rogues and Hunters had specs that were entirely too similar to one another, and now they have truly unique options.

10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance

Eh, I more or less agree, although I have no strong feelings on the topic.

I'd imagine part of the reason for removing such options was because one was always the best option and it was a noob trap to use the other (kinda like the old talent trees).

But at the same time, that's fine, not everyone wants to min-max, and player choice in general is good.

10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.

I'd say this depends on the spec.

Enhancement feels fine. Most casters feel fine. Vengeance DH feels fine. Prot Paladin feels fine.

Prot Warriors don't feel fine and they're getting that fixed in the next patch. I believe Frost DKs as well are getting their major issue resolved in the patch.

But then you still have specs like BM Hunter with stackable CDs that initially do nothing, so you're spending at least 3 seconds doing absolutely nothing, which feels bad.

For -all- specs I've tried other than Prot Warrior, the baseline rotation feels just fine, it's just a couple specific issues with cooldowns that come up only a few times during a ~6 minute encounter. I still don't agree with the change in general, but I think it's effect is overstated by the community.

10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.

I know this varies based on spec, but Enhancement Shaman gets basically nothing from traits. They're all basically equal because they're all just passive generic garbage that has 0 effect on gameplay. We're not really farming to unlock our "full potential," we're just unlocking some passive damage.

For specs like Enhancement, I think this is fine. Azerite System has other flaws worth mentioning, but nothing to do with class design.

Beyond that, I know there are traits that increase the baseline proc rate for major abilities for both Elemental and Prot Paladin. I assume there are others. Those traits should be baseline, as you tend to want exactly 1 of them for the increased proc rate. Just give it to us.

Aaand again beyond that, I don't know what kinds of traits are out there. Prot Paladin has some nice ones, but they don't change how the spec plays so I'm hesitant to say it feels like we have to unlock the spec via traits, because we don't.
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Most definitely, never have I seen a class design so bad as BFA's.
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I know this is somewhat un-related, but I used to love the race-based abilities that went with classes such as the priest. I remember making a troll for shadowguard, then switch to NE for the starfall spell. It is having the choice such as this that really put meaning into a RPG.

Now, classes are slower, spells are constantly being taken away, or given to us as talents. We do not gain anything in 20 levels since 100. I do not even want to level up another character since the leveling experience was destroyed in legion.
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I fully agree with all your points. Blizzard doesn't want to balance all the variables anymore, allowing us too have so many different way to customize our avatars/class is a no no. I don't have any metrics too work with but it can only be for three reasons.

- Simplified core systems for a younger player-base more competitive e-sports
- Making Wow available on next-gen consoles streamlining core systems
- Preparing Wow for a smaller development team DLC content systems free to play

I hope i'm wrong if they continue too remove the ability to customize and keep homogenizing classes one of three or more is happening above i feel.
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But my 5 year can play now. She can now understand what they do!
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I love a lot of classes in MoP too.

I miss equipping the weapons I WANTED. I want to duel wield on my BrM monk.
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Can we get Blizz to make a formal petition? Like something that is mandatory for when you try to open the game a little survey pops up that you can't close until you answer it?

The questions might read:
1. Did you prefer MoP class design over WoD through BfA design?
2. Have you only played BfA but are not enjoying the way each class feels?
3. Are you enjoying the way in which each class currently plays?
4. Not sure.

Just a quick example of what it may look like, but something that i believe they should seriously consider.
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Ion knows what u all want so may as well give it up. U just don’t know u want it yet.
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10/27/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Kurrocaz
1. Did you prefer MoP class design over WoD through BfA design?


MoP classes were already borderline bloated, and imagine if they just kept adding more and more each expansion. Not even a gaming mouse would suffice.

I do feel pruning and then tying spec flavor and abilities to gear was a mistake though.
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10/27/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Paeldryth
10/27/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Kurrocaz
1. Did you prefer MoP class design over WoD through BfA design?


MoP classes were already borderline bloated, and imagine if they just kept adding more and more each expansion. Not even a gaming mouse would suffice.

I do feel pruning and then tying spec flavor and abilities to gear was a mistake though.


Oh I actually agree with what you brought up lol, it was just a placeholder!

However I would take bloat over this garbage we have now.
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I can't say much for my main, Frost Mage feels roughly the same as it did in Legion.
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10/27/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Paeldryth
MoP classes were already borderline bloated, and imagine if they just kept adding more and more each expansion. Not even a gaming mouse would suffice.


MoP honestly wasn't bloated at all. Plus, there's the myth that they have to add new abilities.

They gutted classes and haven't even given us a new talent row. In what world are we expecting new abilities every expansion.

MoP ability count with new talents every expansion would have been fine.
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ty blizz for deleting my main spec i played since wrath.
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10/27/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Reesespieces
10/27/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Paeldryth
MoP classes were already borderline bloated, and imagine if they just kept adding more and more each expansion. Not even a gaming mouse would suffice.


MoP honestly wasn't bloated at all. Plus, there's the myth that they have to add new abilities.

They gutted classes and haven't even given us a new talent row. In what world are we expecting new abilities every expansion.

MoP ability count with new talents every expansion would have been fine.


Yeah there's always the false dichotomy that they can only either add abilities or take them away. Maybe they can just, I dunno... KEEP abilities?
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10/27/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Tsavis
I read your post in the original thread, and I have to say this I agree with all of your points. I loved my destro lock in MoP ever since they fired Xelnath they have done everything they could do undo what he did, and they even brought back soulfire. I didn't participate in the first thread, but I'm going to here.


I really enjoyed my destro lock in MoP. The problem is was the only viable warlock spec for a long time. I've been enjoying playing affic for the last few expansions.
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10/27/2018 01:44 PMPosted by Kaath
10/27/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Tsavis
I read your post in the original thread, and I have to say this I agree with all of your points. I loved my destro lock in MoP ever since they fired Xelnath they have done everything they could do undo what he did, and they even brought back soulfire. I didn't participate in the first thread, but I'm going to here.


I really enjoyed my destro lock in MoP. The problem is was the only viable warlock spec for a long time. I've been enjoying playing affic for the last few expansions.


I have been questing, leveling as affliction. I am enjoying it, but I'm a destro kinda gal, always have been. In wrath I was able to play demo/destro hybrid because I loved the felguard, I called him Mr Grumpy. I don't understand why they removed/changed the felguard again, I liked having the extra aoe as a perma pet, I really miss that.

I do think if Xelnath had been around long enough he would have worked with players to make other specs viable too. I do remember them listening to feedback on the proposed changes in MoP beta.
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