10/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by
Vaenaru 1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
Agreed.
Taking things away then giving them back in the form of a choice between other things isn't even subtle, they just expect us to accept it. It's bad.
I will say that of the initial pruning prior to WoD was fine as some abilities were outright useless or had been replaced by better versions.
I will also say that MOST specs weren't really notably impacted by the WoD pruning. Warriors got it the worst, while Elemental Shamans got -more- interesting than MoP, for example.
The shuffling around of talents with abilities we used to have has been more prevalent in BfA than any other time, and it definitely feels bad.
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.
I agree with Ion on this one. Actively encouraging people to stand in the bad when it's not a fight mechanic is not ideal, and it's even worse for berserker stance since the healers have to deal with that garbage, unlike cheesing AMS. Tank Vengeance was the same thing, and it too got removed because it was bad design.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
Disagree. Changing the specs up every so often keeps things fresh, If everything just stayed the same +/- a generic spell every expansion, it'd get stale. For every person who quits over "too much change" there's another who would have quit because they got bored of no change.
That, and overhauls like Outlaw and Survival were necessary for the sake of actually having varied spec choices. Rogues and Hunters had specs that were entirely too similar to one another, and now they have truly unique options.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance
Eh, I more or less agree, although I have no strong feelings on the topic.
I'd imagine part of the reason for removing such options was because one was always the best option and it was a noob trap to use the other (kinda like the old talent trees).
But at the same time, that's fine, not everyone wants to min-max, and player choice in general is good.
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.
I'd say this depends on the spec.
Enhancement feels fine. Most casters feel fine. Vengeance DH feels fine. Prot Paladin feels fine.
Prot Warriors don't feel fine and they're getting that fixed in the next patch. I believe Frost DKs as well are getting their major issue resolved in the patch.
But then you still have specs like BM Hunter with stackable CDs that initially do nothing, so you're spending at least 3 seconds doing absolutely nothing, which feels bad.
For -all- specs I've tried other than Prot Warrior, the baseline rotation feels just fine, it's just a couple specific issues with cooldowns that come up only a few times during a ~6 minute encounter. I still don't agree with the change in general, but I think it's effect is overstated by the community.
All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.
I know this varies based on spec, but Enhancement Shaman gets basically nothing from traits. They're all basically equal because they're all just passive generic garbage that has 0 effect on gameplay. We're not really farming to unlock our "full potential," we're just unlocking some passive damage.
For specs like Enhancement, I think this is fine. Azerite System has other flaws worth mentioning, but nothing to do with class design.
Beyond that, I know there are traits that increase the baseline proc rate for major abilities for both Elemental and Prot Paladin. I assume there are others. Those traits should be baseline, as you tend to want exactly 1 of them for the increased proc rate. Just give it to us.
Aaand again beyond that, I don't know what kinds of traits are out there. Prot Paladin has some nice ones, but they don't change how the spec plays so I'm hesitant to say it feels like we have to unlock the spec via traits, because we don't.
only logical post in here, and surprise surprise also the only poster here that's actually played the game.
Am I the only one that's literally never had a problem with bloating? I played warlock, mage, rogue, and warrior all expansions wrath onwards.
I've never had a problem. I fill up my 1-6, then bind Q-E-R-T, F-G-H, and Z-X-C-V.
It feels very comfortable and my fingers never have to move far. It also feels great to execute a toolkit, since I have more options for more scenarios and encounters don't play out the same way as much.
The over-innovation we've gotten is of the wrong kind. It hasn't made PvP more balanced or classes more fun to play, just more accessible.
3 Likes
10/27/2018 01:49 PMPosted by
Elynos only logical post in here, and surprise surprise also the only poster here that's actually played the game.
I'd love to play BfA, but I literally can't stomach logging in because class design is so bad.
Honestly, I've really only had passing interest in WoW since WoD hit, which, coincidentally, was around the time Class Design went to Hell. Imagine that.
7 Likes
10/27/2018 01:49 PMPosted by
Elynos only logical post in here, and surprise surprise also the only poster here that's actually played the game.
I'd love to play BfA, but I literally can't stomach logging in because class design is so bad.
Honestly, I've really only had passing interest in WoW since WoD hit, which, coincidentally, was around the time Class Design went to Hell. Imagine that.
Understandable, but the fact that you haven't played the game lessens the effect and viability of your criticisms. Since you are talking about things you haven't experienced.
That, and overhauls like Outlaw and Survival were necessary for the sake of actually having varied spec choices.
Gee how has that worked out?
Survival, basically the least played spec ever in Legion while previously being one of the most popular Hunter specs.
Fully reworked again in BFA still barely played. MM worse off than Legion played even less than melee Survival.
Top most played class for a decade dropped down to tied for 4th.
Player activity in BFA is right about the same as mid summer.
6 Likes
10/27/2018 01:54 PMPosted by
Elynos Understandable, but the fact that you haven't played the game lessens the effect and viability of your criticisms. Since you are talking about things you haven't experienced.
Don't entirely agree with that take, honestly.
It's one thing if a person simply hasn't done the content (ie, BG hero talking about 3s meta balance, or perpetual LFR "raider" talking about things that impact Mythic).
Instead though, I've raided Heroic (Before Mythic was a thing. The last bout of "Progression" I did was subbing in for my former guild's H Lei Shen progression, after quitting raiding due to irl responsibilities 2nd week of ToT), and I've done 3s above 2k. Not a top 10 player, but experienced enough, considering not much has changed
at that level.The only thing I have no experience with (and thus, try to steer clear of talking about) are Mythic Dungeons. That's less a gameplay thing, though. I'm glad people enjoy them, but the "hard" dungeons I wanted were in the mold of old UBRS, not Diablo Rifts. Different strokes, I guess.
1 Like
Good to see you again Mr. Reesepieces.
10/27/2018 02:02 PMPosted by
Shadøw Good to see you again Mr. Reesepieces.
Oh! It looks like the old gang from Part I is filtering in after all.
Class design in BfA is the most un-engaging ever IMO. And before rotation apologists get their jimmies rustled, itâs not really about that for me. I mean, some specs really donât have exciting rotations but the biggest thing for me is the lack of utility and complexity for almost every specialization, thanks to ability pruning, class fantasy and âbring the classâ developer antics.
5 Likes
Just going to say, when I resubbed for 8.0, my thoughts in regards to my class werenât âWhat cool new things am I getting?â but instead âHow much will I be losing this time?â
8 Likes
Disagree. Changing the specs up every so often keeps things fresh, If everything just stayed the same +/- a generic spell every expansion, it'd get stale. For every person who quits over "too much change" there's another who would have quit because they got bored of no change.
This just isn't true at all. Innovation exists on the margins (i.e. 80/20), constant revolutionizing of swathes of design more often means cannibalization of depth especially as the the MMO genre declines, the least risky option becomes catering to the lowest common denominator in a mass market and sustaining interest through frequent releases (made possible by streamlined design, it's why azerite traits and world quests are advantageous from a business model perspective), and RPGs move further away from their pen and paper roots while becoming more simplified and arcade-like in gameplay. Bethesda is a fine example of this.
A fine example of this cannibalization is the examples of more varied specs you point out, since as a trend they are more streamlined. They play like classes in D3.
Warlock has become more varied between the 3 specs, but at the cost of each being less functional than before. At least in PvP.
The GCD change was introduced to smooth over the gaps.
3 Likes
I've unsubbed but still have game time until the 31st. If, by some miracle, Blizz actually announces a) major changes in class design, particularly Resto/Enh Shaman, and b) a complete overhaul of azerite system for 8.1, I'd consider re-subbing via gold to try it out.
I honestly don't understand what the class devs are doing over there. The recent SPriest changes are a joke considering they "decided" to "wait" until 8.1 to "update" the class. Most of the changes could have been hotfixed! I've given up hope that they'll ever even mention Shaman again. We lost so much after Legion and gained absolutely nothing, other than the stupid azerite meme gear which I loathe with every fibre of my being.
In 10+ years, I've never disliked this game more than I have in its current state. I feel really bad for the art team whose talents have gone to waste. I hope Blizz gives them great references.
5 Likes
Yeah Iâve been spending my spare time playing Path of Exile instead of WoW. Holy cow that game feels great compared to what WoW is now.
3 Likes
Been leveling all of my alts to be prepared for next tier. Played a Paladin ever since BC but honestly can't continue to be a burden on my raid team. Feels bad.
1 Like
I've said this before elsewhere but BfA is the first expansion where I actually do not want to level my characters. The game feels much worse at 120 than it does at 110.
11 Likes
Well every spec I've tried this xpac has certainly been more boring than before, so I'll agree.
Feels good to grow in power, then have all that growth taken away, and then some. And on top of that have to grind forever just to earn a little back, that is distinctly inferior to what came before.
I guess that's the new model. Ability prune like hell and then make players gain inferior versions of a few of the abilities they had before through an expansion long grind, only to repeat.
Grinding gear and replacing it wasn't enough, now we have to do it for abilities.
1 Like
"Button bloat" is a key phrase that automatically indicates an inexperienced or unskilled player. There wasn't a single useless button on any class in MoP. If you thought there was, you weren't playing at a high enough level to find a use for it. You were free to remove it from your bars and your mind if you wished. For blizzard to remove those abilities from everyone's spellbooks though, that's abhorrent.
Disagree. Changing the specs up every so often keeps things fresh, If everything just stayed the same +/- a generic spell every expansion, it'd get stale. For every person who quits over "too much change" there's another who would have quit because they got bored of no change.
That, and overhauls like Outlaw and Survival were necessary for the sake of actually having varied spec choices. Rogues and Hunters had specs that were entirely too similar to one another, and now they have truly unique options.
I hear riot and blizzard devs saying this, but it's just another "you think you do, but you don't" mindset. A little change here and there isn't totally bad but reworks every year just steps on the toes of your old players, and for what? Sub numbers certainly aren't going up. Melee SV and rogue the bones replaced specs that people have been playing since vanilla to appeal to nonexistent players. Artifacts and azerite only gave passives, they'd fit just fine with MoP classes. There's your freshness.
Massive changes for the sake of freshness isn't needed in multiplayer games, especially in PvP. I could see an arguement made for PvE mixups, but that's because PvErs use cookie cutter builds and fight scripted enemies. Of course that gets stale quickly. In PvP there are a massive amount of variables that go into every encounter, both in and out of the game. It doesn't matter if you're using the same abilities for 6+ years, battles outside of the top 0.01% of arenas will still be unique.
Each time abilities are pruned and classes are simplified, the skill cap goes down as well as the variance. It has come so far down that in many cases PvP feels just as scripted as PvE. This is not good change. It's no wonder why people prefer the old "stale" game to the new "fresh" game.
9 Likes
There's no doubt that overall class design was by far the best in MoP. There has been an occasional spec shine since then, but the game as a whole has only gone downhill when it comes to class gameplay since MoP.
6 Likes
Wrote a lengthy piece, and just deleted it.
The only way to see some proper changes is to make a few things clear, then water can flow again, instead of trying to patch a broken dam.
To the blizzard team that worked on BFA, shame on you.
You let us down.
7 Likes