Ahh. I guess it also depends on what that person means for viable. Everyone has a different idea of what that is, just like people have a different idea of ways to bring back 2h and so on. Trying to find common ground is what a discussion is supposed to be around. So if that guy is saying it was 15% behind DW then the viable statement might be accurate, if its 5% then its probably not accurate, depends on the game mode being ran as well.
If you just look at the forums, everyone has a different opinion on whats best for PvP, M+, Raids, farming, you name it.
Itâs because they know that 2h as an option means they will most likly have to pick between ST and AoE. IMO 2h should be the main Frost Spec, Dw should be the âJust for funâ spec. UH is the AoE spec, Blood the Tank spec, and 2h Frost ST spec.
Think of it like this, If you loved DW and all of Frost was forced to DW this means the thing you liked is now the only option and you can never be expected to be anything but DW. So they donât want another option because then itâs possible 2H might be better and then they would be expected to be 2h.
What they donât get is they are being insanely blind and selfish. They donât care that all the 2h frost players got dung heaped on. DWâs attitude is like, Sucks to be you, to 2h Frost players, but donât take my fun away, let 2h Frost be the oneâs who got dung heaped.
Why would you have to choose between single target and aoe if 2h made a return? It just means you have to get even more weapons to play effectively. Some people donât like getting 2 and now they have to get 3 with your idea?
And why should 2h be the serious frost spec and DW be just for fun?
You are prematurely creating this divide that only really exists to those that are basically fanatics of 2h. Most everyone else just cares about the spec, how it plays, they are frost death knights, not 2h or DW. It just so happened that DW was almost always better and that is what people played because that is what the guides found to just perform better. This trend lasted over 4 expansions until it went completely DW. The playstyle might have changed because blizzard wanted to make the 2 weapons distinct from each other, starting in MoP. But other than that historically DW was better and balanced around.
You are just another example of 2h supporters all wanting something different that I can add to the list. The list is just different ways people want it back and nothing to be like âthis person should not be listened tooâ. Itâs just so far there are like 5 different opinion on 2h and the only thing actually linking everyone together is they like the weapon.
Because most other specs have to do the same thing and TBH 2h Frost was the main ST DK spec historically. DW was originally more of the AoE spec due to Howling Blast. Do you think Arms get to be both AoE and ST powerhouse? No, they donât. You have to pick one or the other, and they donât get the option to change weapons and go from ST to AoE or vise versa. Fury at times gets that option but that is bad class design because it was not always that way.
Why should 2h Frost not be the Frost spec other than your bias? I can play that game too. Why not 2h Frost be the only Frost spec and we get rid of DW? Perhaps because you would not like that? Hu?
And you are different? You are extremely biased and only want it your way, youâre no different. Get off your high horse and stop pretending youâre not.
Perhaps youâre starting to get the point of that last post? Meh, who am I kidding you have no idea.
Most have to choose one talent or another. But in a lot of specs they are on the same row.
Just take Frost for example, first tier is all single target, second is resource gen, third is control, 4th is aoe, 5th is movement/self sustain, 6th is also cd based are and the last tier is cooldown.
Fury warrior? Resources for the first tier, 2nd is a mix like the 5th tier for frost, 3rd single target, 4th movement/damage reduction, 5th is doing different things with rampage or execute but still keeping them single target, 6th is aoe and the last tier is cooldowns.
Affliction ,single target, single target, movement/damage reduction, aoe, cc/movement, damage increase mostly through single target aside from grim sac which can be aoe based on multi dotting, and the last is cooldowns/resource management.
Iâm just clicking on class specs at random. Most donât have to choose between single target and aoe. Itâs what kind of aoe are you doing, do you need burst single target or a steady flow throughout the fight.
Thatâs how itâs designed but we all know people just aim what is best and use it.
And what bias, I just asked a question, why should it be 2h being the serious portion and DW be just for fun?
Why should we not get rid of DW in favor of 2h? Artifacts and the transmog system doesnât work properly to allow DW skin over a 2h weapon. That however does not mean 2h should not come back and I have to put that as a disclaimer now because people are looking at this like football teams.
Where am I biased or are you just acting as someone who disagrees with your idea is automatically on the opposing team? Like there are teams in the first place.
You are arguing a point that I havenât even made.
Imagine that, answered your question with a quote that I already posted.
You are biased because you spend the vast majority of your time finding every single 2h Frost post you can and arguing why 2 Frost shouldnât be a thing due to"balance". It would be one thing if you were arguing it should be a thing and spend your time being supportive, but you are constantly saying we shouldnât have 2h Frost without balancing it, instead of saying we should have it an encouraging blizzard to do the leg work to balance it and make it happen.
I think itâs obvious to anyone reading your post but you are heavily in favor of dual wield only.
But since you havenât figured out yet that my post stating it should be for fun was meant more as a jab at the dual wield only people who constantly are saying 2 Frost shouldnât be a thing and not to bring it back. I would bet most 2h Frost supporters figured that out. Iâm actually in favor of both options, Iâm just tired of the dual wield people constantly saying 2h Frost shouldnât be brought back.
This isnât quite true. 2H Frost was a single target spec because it had no other choice with so much investment in Obliterate over all else. Dual-wield was never pigeonholed into being specifically AoE/cleave, though, it was just capable of it and at times favored because it could do so passively.
Where have I said 2h shouldnt be a thing at all anywhere? Are you 100% positive that when I was talking about balance I wasnt actually talking about MotFW and the separate playstyles?
You do know that the weapons mean absolutely nothing in terms of spec design right now right when abilities are based off of attack power right? They can make the spec play like whatever we want.
Also you are wrong. In Wrath, where it all began, the weapons were just that, weapons that you used and you played the spec. DW didnt focus on HB and all that other stuff, and that didnt actually come in until Masterfrost. They both had access to the same exact abilities and the playstyle was the same. You applied your dots so Obliterate would hit harder, you got the talent where Obliterate wouldnt eat your diseases, you turned your blood runes into death runes using Blood Strike or Blood Boil every other rune rotation, use HB on Rime procs, used Frost Strike on Runic Power, used runes on Obliterate if Diseases were up.
One rotation you would have 2 blood strikes and 2 Obliterates, the next you would have 3 obliterates. It didnt matter what weapon you had. Even aoe played the same. HB, plague strike, spread with pestilence, death and decay, blood boil, and howling blast on frost and death runes. Other than death and decay, and pestilence there wasnt anything to use unholy runes on.
The weapons shouldnt mean anything other than that is what you want to use and with how abilities are now, its actually possible.
Buy the style that 2hFrost has played it is true. most of the time you would ignore howling blast even when you could use it unless it was free and would save your runes for obliterates. That made it pretty heavily a single-target spec.
That is only if you go as far back as MoP/WoD otherwise its just flat out untrue.
Like stated before, Wrath/Cata didnt have this focus on what each weapon set was supposed to do and they did identical rotations. 2h in cata had MotFW that just gave melee damage increase. The split caused this âfocusâ. One being on frost damage and masterfrost came up, if DW has a focus on Frost Strike why wouldnt you get mastery to boost it even more, which eventually made HB, while an aoe spell, was used in place of obliterate for single target because 2 runes spend on HB would equal out to more damage than a single obliterate that also uses 2 runes. DW was still single target when the specs were split.
Just like now when Frostscythe can be used over obliterate for single target with KM active since it will do more than half of what obliterate will do with KM active. With enough mastery of course.
Thatâs actually a pretty nice one since some enemies are so strong that instead of AoE, you need to cull that single enemy as fast as possible. Wish 2h Frost was still around so I can focus that one enemy down and not have to worry about it afterwards while dealing with the rest of em.
i think you are missing the point being made here. correct me if im wrong but i believe hes saying 2h frost focused on single target to its detriment because so much of its damage was funneled into oblit that it devalued using anything but it. dual wield single target damage iirc was comparable to better than 2h at points when the specs were close. aoe damage however dual wield was significantly better due to the extra runeforge + benefits from mastery.
if single target damage was supposed to be its strength it didnât do that very well (outside of very short gcd windows) as many other specs performed that role with much better results.
I guess you can say to its detriment (in MoP and WoD) since it focused on a singular aspect of a spec that consists more than just obliterate. Just like how masterfrost at a certain point just removed an entire aspect of the spec as well. Rime and Obliterate were just wasted entirely. I dont think any other spec out there that had a sub spec wasted aspects of that spec.
All that it really did was single target damage while DW did both. This is why i absolutely hated when they split the specs because it created this divide since you have to say â2h did thisâ and âdw did thisâ instead of having 1 spec and you just chose your weapon. I dont know who had the bright idea of this separation, but it just caused problems seemingly everywhere.
Kusarii expanded well on my point. Though, I wasnât quite going for all of that, as much as I was just trying to point out that the weapons types didnât really break down to the option of single target, or AoE. Yes, 2H Frost was largely single target in nature, but dual-wield was never limited to just AoE.
there were tech 2 kinds of masterfrost
the optimal build still included oblit and rime although rarely. masterfrost consisted of optimally using your unholy runes to keep only one of them regenning which allowed you to proc runic empowerment on frost or death runes only. the unholy rune would be used in priority of plague strike if blood plague needed to be applied, then death and decay (even on single targer), then obliterate as the lowest priority to burn an unholy rune.
mastersimple style removed oblit entirely for a slight dps loss.
Ah, i completely forgot about that mechanic of runic empowerment and remember it now. Mastersimple was kind of like ignoring plague strike back in wrath for a more simple rotation but at a slight dps loss as well even though it wasnt hard to work it in.
I absolutely forgot about that aspect of it. Im sure people would also just use plague strike for the strike damage to use Howling Blast more.