You are telling me what I need to say, when you have no idea how many times I have seen people do this shiz in mythics, regular dungeons and all else.
Let me be clear on this: I have over a hundred toons. That means I have taken the time to level those toons from the ground up, with the exception of, oh let’s say, maybe 8 or so boosted toons.
The majority of toons I play in this game are healers, then tank toons. Paladins alone, I have 30+.
This is not a “one off” experience.
You need to climb down off of your high horse, and stop trying to squeeze people in to saying what you want them to, and downplaying what they have seen for themselves.
Telling you that it isnt the “norm” isn’t discounting it.
I’m sorry, if your experience was the norm the forums would be FILLED with this because that behavior is lunacy.
Your view is very narrow and it’s unhealthy when you see things that way.
PS. I’m not agreeing with the players that do said actions, so you telling me to get off my high horse is insulting. Considering the only emotionally invested person here is you.
This is the problem though, these threads are never aimed in context to higher content. And this sort of thought process always trickles down to lower content. Even when this sort of minmaxing was pervasive at the beginning of wotlk it was not this bad. Now when we have threads like this, all the plebs get their panties in a bunch.
Some of us enjoy lower content just for funzies, nobody is expected to try hard, and even if there is a wipe its like so what? Even at our current gear im certain that i can load up wow and try to do a M0 and get gatekeeped cause im 270 ilvl. Its out of hand. This discussion contributes nothing but toxicity in the game, and everyone who this healer dps mantra applies too is already doing it.
I hear what you’re saying but what would you have me do? Say that it isn’t better play for healers to do damage? Because I won’t lie. What you’re describing it absolutely inappropriate behavior and as I said before, I’m perfectly willing to fight that with you when I see it. But if a novice healer is asking me for ways to improve or we have a theory crafting thread like this one, I’m going to talk about how doing damage is better strategy.
It honestly really makes no difference to me how strict the healing requirements are in DF. The core philosophy remains the same in every case. If you have an empty GCD, you should do damage. If they adjust healing requirements such that there are fewer empty GCDs, well then so be it. Good healers adjust to the healing requirements of the content.
I’ve noticed you have sidestepped the question here, so it’s telling that this is something you’re unwilling to touch despite the fact some of you said that, and not in jest i might add.
Maybe you ought to question the impatient DPS on why it’s challenging then? Or the DPS or “healer mains” that keep on saying “We don’t want high damage numbers” and then immediately turn around and say “you should do damage on every single GCD when you get a chance”, pretty much saying “we do want high damage numbers”?
Because again, i went on my monk healer on my normal dungeon just a week or two ago, nobody complained that i didn’t DPS and i’ve kept pretty much everybody alive throughout and completed the dungeon.
So what’s the problem? Yes you’re right, no one is enforcing high level strategies in a normal dungeon. Does that mean that healers doing damage isn’t better play? Of course not.
When we say “healers should do damage in empty GCDs” we’re stating the ideal. There’s no obligation to be a perfect player otherwise the whole lot of us would have to cancel our subs right now. It doesn’t mean you HAVE to be a good player, it means that if your aim is to be a better player, it’s a skill you should nurture.
People here trying to enforce this to be the norm in non-timed dungeons?
I said “Nobody complained in that dungeon”. I didn’t say “No one is enforcing high level strategies in a normal dungeon”.
Also, i have to doubt that. Unless you’re saying what the forums saying isn’t true and the ingame that people wouldn’t actually care if you healer DPS for the most part.
Resh, when the pro healer dps crowd gives me arguments that boil down to “Higher numbers” and give this GCD spiel about where they argue that watching or overhealing is bad, but doing damage is only good, while at the same time they said they don’t want higher numbers from the healer… What do you want me to think then?
What do you want me to do then? Go up to the boss, auto attack from behind while healing you guys then? What’s the threshold for this?
What do they need people to healer DPS anyways, if it’s not to get higher numbers then? And please don’t give me the nebulous “contribution” excuse, because at this point, nobody can even clearly define what it is anymore given how overused it has become trying to justify all this. And don’t give me boredom as well, because fun is subjective.
Well if nobody complained my lack of DPS as a healer, then i don’t see that as an area to nurture yet. Maybe when i step back into the realm of M+, maybe i’l consider it.
Tbh, i would see that as a better point for in case of emergencies.
Like mine for example, that happened to me a few days ago. i was on my Enc Sham, and we were doing the uldman pre-patch dungeon like normal, just started… and the healer and DPS just left for… honestly no reason. They didn’t even say anything, they just left. So we had to 3 man the dungeon. And That’s when i had to Heal/DPS. It wasn’t too bad, it was me, the druid tank and the DH Dps. Well i say it wasn’t too bad, but another healer and DPS never got replaced as we completed the dungeon.
Okay, i know it isn’t exactly the same as Healer DPSing, but it’s the same sort of idea of roles doing something outside of their intended roles for a situation that needed it.
There are several points that should be obvious about this conversation:
It’s good to contribute to your team.
Doing DPS in your empty GCDs is a way to contribute.
Having a good performance is a good thing, even if it’s not necessary to complete a certain content.
When you join a pug, you’re expected to contribute and not doing the bare minimum.
A healer that heals enough and does damage is a better player than a healer that only heals enough, provided both are equal on other measures.
However, also this:
You shouldn’t harass players for bad performance.
For lower difficulty content, you con do well without perfect performance.
But also this:
Constructive criticism is valid, provided you do it respectfully and the other party seems open to hear it.
If you, as a leader, state that you’re pushing, or otherwise make your group know that you expect the party to face challenges and good performance is required, then everyone should know those are the rules for that run.
Nobody will really complain if you do this. People are chill and it’s a thing that is secondary to the role unless you’re pumping keys so high the rewards have stopped increasing. But it’s still something that adds more value than one thinks on the surface. Even just doing 5-10% of the damage can be the difference between timing a key/2 chest/ 3 chest.
You are correct that there’s a fair bit of a numbers game going on here. If we’re talking the highest levels of play, then yes the healer is trying to not only fill their empty GCDs, but also to maximize their total damage done. In the absolute ideal case, a healer is only providing the exact amount of healing needed for people to not die, all of their other resources are devoted to damage. Same for the tank. They spend their resources on survivability up until the point where they’re not dying, all excess resources are spent on damage.
It’s difficult to give you a straight answer since this depends pretty heavily on the content you’re doing. If you’re asking me objectively… I can look at two different strategies and say that okay, this one does 5k DPS and provides enough healing and this other one does 6k DPS and provides less healing, but still enough to cover healing requirements. So that second strategy is better. Regardless of which is more difficult to execute, that’s just a numbers game. But I don’t think people expect that level of scrutiny in normal dungeons.
I would honestly say contribution but I’ll try to explain it in a way that’s less nebulous. I view it in terms of margin for error. Whenever you do PvE content, raid, dungeon, whatever… think of it like you’re trying to thread a needle. The margin for error would be the size of the needle opening and how accurate you are with the thread is your performance. Every time you do something that widens your margin of error, that’s good play and a positive contribution. If you do something bad like a mistake or you die, that reduces your margin of error. Make too many mistakes and the needle hole will close completely and the run is dead.
Doing damage widens the margin for error. I’m sure you’ve heard me say that shorter fights are safer fights, and every second saved gives you more room to make mistakes elsewhere and still finish the run. Basically the better you play, the more likely it is for the group to succeed.
I can look at a group and literally measure how much everyone contributes to the run. If I add up the health of all the mobs and bosses then I know how much damage needs to be done to win and if I add up all the damage done by the enemies then I can add up how much healing needs to be done to not lose. It doesn’t matter who that damage or healing comes from, but the total damage and healing supplied by the group needs to meet those two goals or the run is dead. A healer who contributes 10 million healing contributes less to the group than the one who contributes 10 million healing plus 1 million damage.
WoW is a game of trade offs. We all have resources to spend including mana, energy, and yes, GCDs. GCDs are a resource since you only get so many of them over a certain span of time. Once 1.0s goes by, I will spend a GCD whether I want to or not. So what do I gain in exchange for spending that GCD? If I cast Shred, then I gain the damage the Shred does and all that. If I cast Regrowth with Predatory Swiftness, I gain its healing. If I cast nothing then I gain… nothing. Which would you rather get in return for spending your money? Nothing or some damage?
Honestly that’s a fine attitude to take since this kind of thing is fairly content dependent. I tend to push this skill more than others because I see it as a fundamental skill with a lot of overlap throughout various content. When I mentor my raiders, I emphasize fundamentals over specifics. Learning how you need to move to dodge a specific boss attack is a specific skill that becomes useless as soon as you do a different fight. Learning how to manage your resources and practice proper ABC (Always Be Casting) is a fundamental skill that you can take anywhere with any class and it will still serve you well.
There’s nothing mandatory about any skill in WoW if you never do content that demands it, but in my personal opinion, you will get more out of learning how to do proper ABC than you will from learning other skills. If you have limited time to learn and practice WoW skills… that would be close to the top of my list of recommendations.
Does that all make sense? Also you changed your mog! Throwing me off.
I don’t know what you mean by ‘many’ but I do run quite a few lower keys with friends / guildmates, and I can tell you with some certainty that no one is queuing for the sole purpose of harassing healers.
I find it somewhat alarming that the side of this argument that suggests healers should not do damage at all relies on hyperbole and obfuscation to argue their point. Pre-healing’s fine, if you know the dungeon’s damage profile and it’s actually appropriate to do so, but there is no dungeon in the game where you can fill every global with just pre-healing.
People don’t do this with any frequency worth bringing up in this discussion, I’m sorry. Even if it has happened to you a time or two, it is not something people genuinely feel.
This is because it’s applicable everywhere, and I really think the pushback against healers doing damage is a lot more toxic than just embracing that they can when they feel comfortable enough to do it and heal as well. Since I know it will be asked how that can be more toxic, I’ll elaborate.
This game has a genuine problem with an e-sports mentality. You’ll have newer players harass others on rare occasion even in leveling dungeons for not holding W, or for needing to pee in the middle of one. To hyperbolize healer damage is to diminish the genuine problems people suffer in lower level content, and yes, I do in fact do a good bit of lower end content with my friends.
Most healers do damage anyway, because when a group is not taking much damage (this happens more often than groups that are constantly dying) you may as well toss out a flame shock and a lava burst or two.
Well i guess that settles my suspection for the hypocrisy between the two conflicting ideas they put though.
If they just come right out and say it, i would still not agree, but i wouldn’t have as big a problem with this.
Normal dungeons.
That’s fair enough on the contribution point and on you explaining it.
GCD isn’t money.
…Except that’s not the only 2 things when it comes to healers.
I mean surely you understand that if i cast healing on somebody even if their 100%, they would get that heal, whether they are damaged or not.
Ehhhhhhhh… At most points…
Tbh, i’m not keen with the “ABC” rule you’ve given me here, while it might sound like a good rule, i can’t help but notice how the DPS would use this to justify them doing things to tanks or healers, like pulling for them, taunting off of them, or making them “work” for it, or etc.
I honest to god don’t understand why people view downtime as a bad thing to have, if they are genuinely serious.
I just actually took my helmet off. Much easier to do then just hide it.
It is a resource though and the quintessential resource is money. So it’s an analogy I frequently use. You’re a Rogue so I’m sure you’re familiar with energy capping. If I sit there with full energy then I’m wasting energy since if I didn’t have full energy, I’d be regaining some energy. If I lose too much energy to over caps then I literally lose Shreds and Bites over the fight. It’s the same principle with GCDs. It’s just another resource.
If they’re damaged, sure you gain something useful from spending the GCD on the heal. If they’re not… then no you gained nothing. Overhealing doesn’t help people live more. Anything that would have killed them before the heal will still kill them after the heal. In short, overhealing doesn’t change the game state. The key thing to look at is the actual results of the cast. The results need to be worth the expense. Which brings us into the next point…
Spending resources on things that narrow the margin of error for the group is worse than spending those resources on nothing. ABC doesn’t mean you should spend every GCD just to prove you can. It’s more of a mindset where you look towards making every GCD useful. Taunting off the tank is not useful. Leap of Faithing someone who doesn’t need to move is not useful. When we look for options to spend our GCD, we’re limited by the options available to us provided by our spellbook. Sometimes the best option to spend the current GCD on is literally nothing because all of our viable options provide negative value. This is especially true for us energy classes since we’re limited by our energy rather than by our GCDs. Empty GCDs where we need to pool our energy is a deliberate part of our class design. (I could get into a conversation about owl weaving here but… another time perhaps.)
It’s a bad thing because there were better options available. Some amount of downtime is unavoidable, but that doesn’t make it desirable. We should really only have empty GCDs when there is no other option. Empty GCDs aren’t actively harmful, but they’re not actively helpful either. If you had a helpful option available to you and you chose the neutral option, that’s bad. If you only have negative options available to you and you chose the neutral option, that’s good.
