The worst part of this change is the degenerate gameplay that’s being simmed to combat it. I actually think this change is going to make things worse for Ferals that want to perform well if it’s optimal to delete a glyph mid fight.
Doesn’t help that the nerf is appearing to be multiplicative with SR and naturalist so it ends up being much larger than a 5% physical damage nerf.
Because this thread and this topic is a lot of generalization, can we discuss precisely what the issue is with feral damage and/or rotation the way it is now?
Is there any technical documentation or data we can link to, such as logs, sims, formulae, etc.?
As I see it now, Feral isn’t ahead of everyone else by 5%, and we don’t see 5% dmg nerfs to those who are. E.g. are we going to see a 5% spell damage nerf to a fire mage glyph?
Probably not, because that seems absolutely ridiculous, and certainly not like anyone would find that change fun.
You’re just going in circle if you are asking me the question I already have answered that.
This is rectifying the change they did. Arguing if it should be made would also be arguing if they needed a buff before, which they didn’t.
I’m asking for specific technical details. Do you have something you can link to? Sims, Logs, etc. or something that I can replicate on my end to better understand what the “issue” is with Feral DPS that it needs to be nerfed by 5%?
If you’ve already answered this, would you be so kind as to simply quote your answer, so I can find it easily?
They already did this with the glyph.
I’m not arguing that they should have made any changes. Indeed, I’ve stated several times that they should have just left feral alone. It is, imo, rather mean to make changes to classes this close to the release of ICC. People could have known months ago exactly where they stood with their class and what they were getting themselves into.
In any case, my stance is first that they should not have made any changes, second if they were going to make any changes, they should have followed original patch progression, and third since they have made changes, and haven’t followed patch progression, there should be some reasonable justification as to why they are making any changes, and I don’t think there is or has been any for this change.
Note: a hand-wavy, “it’s a nerf to a buff” isn’t a reasonable thing. What precisely is THE ISSUE they are attempting to correct with a 5% dmg nerf to feral?
If you really want to know the math about it you can go on the druid discord. But I’m guessing you don’t even use it.
Which wasn’t enough. 
The issue is feral does scale way more than intended with the buff they gave it. I’m not a dev if you want a dev answer feel free to communicate with one.
I’m on the druid discord. I’m in the #wotlk-feral-dps channel. What info, precisely are you referring to?
Can you provide any details here? If I question this, can you provide me a way to verify it?
No kidding.
EDIT: Here’s a video with a bit of a breakdown of the change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y60alJTLDHQ
Summary of Video
Glyph of Omen of Clarity was changed. Still procs Omen of Clarity with Faerie Fire, but now also decreases all phys dmg by 5%
They originally nerfed the Naturalist Talent from 10% to 5%, but had to walk it back, because it additionally affected PvP and Tanks.
He notes that the original post addressing this mentions threat being an issue from bearweaving:
And questions why they choose Faerie Fire (with a 6 second cd) to proc OoC, and not something like say Cower which is already a threat reduction, and has a 10 second cd…
He further notes that the change wasn’t intended as a buff to feral, but rather the get rid of bearweaving, because the mechanical complexity was higher than they thought it should be, and the threat generation was too high, and notes that while the change removes bearweaving, ferals still generate a lot of threat so he calls this change an overall failure.
He also notes that it should not be a surprise that this nerf was coming.
And here is a link to a spreadsheet with links to all the sims:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQTLPd3Wkmeb-GEjMBAOXmxX5bcnAw6aKYDnpfXFvYTI7Ni-lEjKxm52mYujPR-AeiOGEv0xaJfPukq/pubhtml
Conclusion
It’s an unnecessary change and it isn’t fun.
And the minority of us that do play feral typically OT on a lot of 2+ tank fights too.
The video you linked only has one part where they disagree with the changes. They just disagree with faerie fire being the vehicle of the changes they made as he would have preferred cower to be used. He totally says that it makes sense and that nobody should be surprised by this.
Yeah, which I noted in my summary:
I’m not surprised. I’m expressing disappointment, dislike, a lack of enjoyment with the changes, in general. My opinion, however, remains very consistent:
Every nerf is generally unfun. So should with never nerf stuff? Like I said linking fun to only numbers is not something you should do if you want to be happy in the longterm and never reroll. I have played dk for more than 10 years because I like the class. Unless it’s bottom of the barrel and doesn’t bring anything there isn’t any real issue.
Maybe.
There doesn’t seem to be a compelling reason supported by data for this change, and it doesn’t point to increased fun or better gameplay overall, imo.
It also feels like, exactly what it is, a sloppy band-aid solution to a problem that (if one believes exists at all) only exists because of an unnecessary band-aid solution to a problem that not only didn’t particularly exist, has not been particularly solved.
It’s just changes to a spec that feel bad… again…
I think it’s totally fine that a new competitive playstyle was balanced so it doesn’t create unexpected changes. Feral druids will be strong nonetheless. ICC is one of the best tier to play a druid. Boomy+Feral make druid one of the most played class for dps.
The same way that unholy gargoyle snapshotting got nerfed because that pushed the class just a bit too much ahead.
(Also would argue that they still need to nerf aff lock snapshotting)
The COMPLETE lack of any comment form a dev or blue poster is insane. They should at least have the fortitude to explain this BS to the community. This change is terrible and not supported by any data (in fact the data on the PTR shows that its not necessary).
If you love ferals so much go throw on a furry outfit and meow at something
Eh… it was a janky change to feral to shutdown bearweaving, and although the data suggest that it didn’t perform as well as the devs anticipated, they are still nerfing it.
Note the wording there, 5-10% dmg increase for the best Feral DPS, and an even larger percentage increase for those who weren’t Bearweaving. Early logs showed it was closer to a 2-3% increase in the top end, and much closer to 5-10% in the low-mid parses.
Anyway, I don’t personally care where feral is on the damage meters, but I do care that they are making relatively large changes to a spec’s playstyle and dmg output at relatively significant points in the expansion, which will impact people’s enjoyment of Wrath Classic overall.
Some people have been waiting literal years for ICC, and have put a lot of time and effort into their characters and getting ready for the next couple of months of progression into it with their guilds. Had they just left feral the way it was at the launch of Wrath, like most other classes/specs, people would know exactly what they signed up for and are getting themselves into, rather than making last-minute changes.
Look, I have no dog in this race, personally, as I play feral for PvP, and I only go to GDKPs, so I don’t really care if I parse 99s or 45s, because I don’t have to worry about whether I get prio on the PvE items I want; I either have the gold to bid on them, or I don’t. And, none of these changes affect PvP, so I’m at least happy about that, but… looking at the data, and looking at the intent behind the changes, the explanations about the changes, and what they have actually implemented, just all point to:
The changes made to feral are reducing fun and enjoyment of gameplay for those who play feral. That sucks.
they did say they would revisit class changes in the PTR before rolling them out to live servers. They are testing the impact of this in the PTR. Now, I would like to see their data to support if this change does make it into live.
The glyph is still simming 500 dps ahead of no glyph and bearweaving as far as I heard. So it’s still a buff. That’s the number that keep circulating on the feral discord.
We seem to be discussing different things. Based on sims, with the 5% dmg nerf, will ferals still use the glyph of Omen of Clarity for their highest possible DPS? Seems like it, yes.
Is this a good change? No, it sucks.
Looking at the data, look at the rotation, the changes, and the explained intent behind them, are there are issues, and have these changes solved them? Doesn’t seem like it.
What have the changes done? Reduced fun for people who play feral druid. Possibly long-trolled some people into rerolling and gearing up feral for ICC. Haha if that’s you!
I mean you’re just arguing about numbers then. Which like I said if your goal is to always be top 3 then you will have to reroll all the time. This isn’t new in wow, that’s how balance works. This won’t affect anything if you like to play feral and as far as your raid spot go. This will just make it so you might not want to stack 4-5 feral dps.
This is how i feel about it. This is deflating.