Indeed! Back in BC, it was a different world design, with a different gameplay philosophy (even Blizzard’s business plan was different). To get to the point where flying can be implemented, successfully, the game needs to go back to that design.
If you look up the design panel from 2005 on youtube, that is a good starting point for changes that need to happen.
So being able to fly in a specific direction manually is engagement? I bet you hate cruise control as well…
Of all the limp efforts to justify why flight is so important, that has to be the most inept attempt yet.
What “design”? This is another laughable “argument” that is constantly dragged out anytime someone needs to try and justify this nonsense.
TBC and LK had the illusion of content “designed” around flight. BUT, almost nothing (save that one netherwing racing quest) would have changed with the addition of a portal or stairs to get you to those couple of spots you couldn’t access by ground. Once there, you would have dismounted either way and done the rest on foot.
The fact that BC had locations that were geographically locked, forced you to avoid those areas if you could not fly, and those same areas happened to be end game zones. Once you got flying, you could go to places previously undiscovered or unreachable – of which there were a fair amount.
In the present game, there are no locations like that; there is no element of discovery, exploration, immersion, or any satisfactory reward for doing the thing, just for the sake of it… Flying is presently only a means to skip what little content there is.
Did you really need flight to “discover” those zones? It wasn’t a matter of “discovering” them, it was a matter of getting enough gold to buy the thing that would allow you to get there so that people like you could justify the mechanic of flight.
And there was exploration in WoW long before flight was even a twinknle in the dev’s eyes. It’s not a lack of flight that’s limiting exploration, it’s just that there isn’t much worth exploring…
The answer is yes.
i’ve been playing since vanilla and while i do love flight, i do think it ruined the game.
i think corpse runs are as necessary a part of the game as travelling to different regions on foot.
I remember how long it took my character to walk from ironforge to menethil harbour and then to southshore. Or wanted to do a dungeon and having to walk a long distance since theres no easy flight path access
it wasnt particularly fun, the amount of time it took was ridiculous.
but thats part of the reason why it felt immersive for me. Annoying things in life such as travelling needed to be annoying in game as well. If it wasn’t for that, i would’ve never noticed how beautiful some parts of azeroth was, how devastated some parts were due to war, and how much detail was put into the design of the world. Since my first character was a gnome warrior,
even now when i step out of ironforge,
i can feel the morning winter chill
and for me, that is beautiful.
What was in those mountains overlooking Terrokar Forest, what existed in that vast unexplored space in Blade’s Edge, what was causing the elemental disturbance above the Throne of Elements? Outside of looking on Thottbot, or word of mouth, how would you know about these things? If someone told you, would you want to go see what it looked like for yourself, even once?
Going to and reaching areas you could not before, ether because you were not strong enough, or did not have the means = exploration at it’s most basic level in any video game. You can look back as far as early 16-bit games, and see similar themes (Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star, Legend of Zelda, etc.).
I agree with you 100% there, BfA simply has a lack of meaningful content in general.
But, again, none of those places would be at all different if you walked there…
Looking at how BC handled flying, the entire idea was that you could not simply walk to those places with the means you had early on. It was something you had to come back to once you had the proper power up.
Think of the hook shot in Legend of Zelda, or the power bomb in Metroid. In both cases, you would frequently go back to previously unexplored areas which you could now access because you had the necessary power up.
Did it though? I mean, flight didn’t improve your character at all. It wasn’t some needed skill to survive there.
On that note, WoW already has mechanisms to keep you out of places you shouldn’t be in yet. First off, death. Second off, they had keys and attunements and rep and all sorts of other things you had to earn. Again, implementing it the way they did simply created the illusion that flight was “needed”.
Outside of death, which is a given in any game I should think, the way you phrase “illusion” could easily be applied to both keys and attunements themselves. It was the way it was done, and the intent behind the design at the time, that made it acceptable.
Player agency, that is, being in control of one’s character actions does indeed lead to more engagement. With things like flight paths, the flight whistle, those take the agency out of the player’s hands. If I am on a flight path for example, and happen to see a rare that I need, or an herb or ore node, or treasure chest, I can’t just change direction and go down to investigate. With player controlled flight, I can. So yes, being able to fly in a specific direction manually leads to more engagement.
I know the anti-fliers will try to spin it like we fliers just point our mounts in a particular direction and then go afk. There may be some people who do that, but I know of no one who does. You know when I go afk? When I get on a flight path, or after I’ve used the flight whistle. Afk = zero player engagement.
You know what else I can do with player controlled flight that I can’t do with flight paths or whistles? I can find the perfect high spot to take cool screenshots of landscapes. I can get on a fiery flying mount and get in the middle of the firey volcano column to get a cool picture. I can also do loop-de-loops and fly upside down. I can play chicken with my friends to hit the ‘ceiling’ and then see who bails first before hitting the ground. I can see how fast I can dodge trees in Val’Sharah.
I don’t expect anyone else to understand, unless they enjoy flight for these kinds of reasons, too. We can explain it to any of you all day long, but we can’t ‘understand’ it for you. And rather than accept that people do have their own valid reasons why they want or need flight to make their WoW game better, you guys disparage, laugh, troll and dismiss anything we might say. No one has to justify anything about their gaming style to anyone else, but when we attempt to, why can’t you just accept that some people simply like it and it improves their game play?
But yet the Vale of Eternal Blossoms was blocked if you didn’t reach a certain point. Flying had nothing to do with it.
Blizzard’s biggest mistake is trying to appeal to members of the community that want everything for nothing. These are not the kind of players who invest anything into a game like WoW.
And yet, not one person has ever said anything even remotely close to that.
Ever.
The last time WoW’s population was on the rise (10+ years ago), the game was about the journey, not the destination.
So its better for me to be alt tabbed out of WOW when on a FP than actively ingame flying my own character.
Got it.
To fix this, Blizzard needs to return to when it was desirable to simply pursue a given goal .
Yup
And a one year timegate on pursuing that goal is counter intuitive.
I can understand why some want flying, but flying is not the solution to the many issues BfA suffers from.
BFA suffers from a lot of things, one of them being a slow but steady drain as players leave never to return. Id say that a slow but steady exodus of players would be a very high priority problem to address, wouldnt you say?
Heres a good point for you
Returning flight would remove a reason people have for leaving.
To get to the point where flying can be implemented, successfully, the game needs to go back to that design.
No one is stopping them from doing that. Problem is, they wont do it.
To say “not one person” is a very broad generalization (a falacy even). Additionally, all one has to do is search google to see this stance reflected at large. I would suggest starting with “Warcraft is Garbage.”
In reply, I would have to quote myself from earlier:
I do not have an opinion on the time gate itself. However, I am inclined to point out, starting in BC, the epic ground mount was notably faster than a basic flying mount, and considerably less expensive. Epic flying, on the other hand, took a fair amount of effort to get; You basically traded the rep grind we have now for an intense gold grind back then (5000g).
Meaning there was still a “gate” it was just a more expensive kind. I refer you to this thread for further player testimony: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759587973
I am glad we agree that there are a number of issues. However, I feel that chief among them is game design/planning/philosophy.
Would flying ALONE cause players to return? Maybe a very small number, but I do not believe that number would be significant, or that from a business perspective, it would attract new players.
A better focus would be to improve game play and ultimately make the experience more rewarding, as this would be more likely to retain players. Bare in mind, this does not necessarily exclude flying by any means, as flying is an aspect that could be vastly improved on itself.
I cannot say what they will do, but I should hope they learn from their mistakes. The Mage Tower in Legion was a wonderful example of rewarding gameplay. You had lots of encouragement and help from the community, each time you got closer it felt a little bit better, and it had a prestigious reward at the end of it all.
Would flying ALONE cause players to return? Maybe a very small number, but I do not believe that number would be significant, or that from a business perspective, it would attract new players.
It would serve to AT LEAST remove one reason people have for leaving. A bandaid, sure, but the current situation is one that needs to be addressed.
FAST.
Step one: remove at least part of the problem. If people leave, fine, thats up to them, but is unbelievably STUPID to PROVIDE a reason for them to leave.
Step two: dont CREATE a problem when the list you have now is already large.
Maybe it wont keep many, maybe a few thousand, maybe more.
Finding ways to STOP people from leaving would make sense.
Forget new players, thats an even more IDIOTIC concept, you do NOT sacrifice or throw away your EXISTING playerbase for “possible new arrivals” which,. my dear Tenchu, are few and far between.
It costs four times as much to get new customers than it does to KEEP the ones you have now.
I cannot say what they will do, but I should hope they learn from their mistakes
BUT THEY HAVENT, Tenchu, they havent. At all.
Thats the entire damned point. They havent. They persist in doggedly sticking to what they want and are either oblivious , dont worry about, or dont CARE that they are losing people.
We arent seeing a mass exodus as we saw in WOD, what we have is far worse.
A steady , slow and PERSISTENT decline. A decline fuelled by the fact that there are MMOs out there INVITING people to leave and come join them. There are WOW competitors out there that are DELIGHTED to get ex WOW players. Thats money in THEIR coffers.
Step three: dont give your competitors a helping hand.
What does this remind me of?
“You arent leaving because of me”
“No, but you did make it a whole lot easier”
Re mage tower: we agree 100%.
Wasnt for me, but I saw a lot of people enjoy it, and that kind of thing needs to be encouraged and expanded upon.
Look, we may not see eye to eye, I respect your opinions even if we dont agree, my point is that with the current situation, even if it doesnt address the larger concerns…for the love of all thats holy, you. have. to. start. somewhere.
Adding flight is low hanging fruit. Wont take much work, if any. Will serve to provide at least some goodwill.
Add flight. Stuff the timegate. Give people one less reason to walk out the door. It wont stop the exodus…but it sure as hell will help to slow it down.
I just wish you could see that.
I would suggest starting with “Warcraft is Garbage.”
Oh…THAT? ![:rofl:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/rofl.png?v=6" ":rofl:")
That foul mouthed tirade from someone stuck in a gaming paradigm from 2004?The guy who needs a truckload of soap to wash out his mouth?
I saw it. I heard every word. Laughed my head off, virtually 85% of it was rubbish and its been picked apart repeatedly.
I believe I understand your position, and I can empathize with wanting to see the current situation improve. I also believe you yourself would not necessarily quit if flying were added today… But for the vast majority of players, I believe the issue lies with engaging content (or lack of it).
I am less than certain how much work it would take. I have seen previous examples of Blizzard’s code that lead me to believe it could be messy.
Are you certain they would not simply fly out the door at that point?
Sorry… I couldn’t help it.
I found it made quite a bit of sense. The reason it became so popular is because so many people agreed with it. As for his choice of words-- I would think his level of passion is something you could relate to, even if not the ideas present.
Are you certain they would not simply fly out the door at that point?
Sorry… I couldn’t help it.
