Title says it all (and I apologize for the long post).
I’ve been coming to the forums for a minute now, getting tips and learning how to play the class. I got a lot of invaluable information here and took strides to improve my gameplay; I also feel like my Rogue is adequately geared for PvP now compared to when I first started asking for help here.
And I love, love, love my Rogue and I especially love Sub… until I do arenas. If I miss a CD we lose; if my teammates don’t know how to play with me we lose. Maybe I got a bit frantic and forgot to push the right CD? Loss. Hell if we’re in the wrong comp and maybe I don’t know how to play with them we lose, and holy hell I’m playing at an incredibly low MMR for that kind of stuff to happen in my opinion.
Meanwhile I can jump onto my Feral and do a lot of the same stuff but with half the headache, a lot more forgivability and better survivability?
I understand Sub is a high-skill/high-reward specialization but it’s just plain too high of a skillcap right now. Granted, I’ve been playing WoW since Beta; I am a little older and probably a little slower but I can’t imagine I’m truly this bad.
I don’t really know how to broach this further without coming off as whiny, but it seems Sub has been balanced around R1 players and it’s simply not fair to the rest of the population who want to play it. Rogue is now one of the least played classes in the game, which seems a bit nuts for a Core class that’s been out since release.
I’ll continue to practice and hopefully get better. I know there’s a L2P aspect here for sure but that can’t be all it is. I’m hoping a Class designer or someone might read this and understand the plight some of us normies are in.
TL;DR: Sub is too difficult and unforgiving.
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Sub just lost Invigorating Shadowdust so the skill to play the spec at its peak is much higher now.
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Which is crazy lol. Whoever the designer is thinks we’re all Whaaz or Kalvish; I’d put Pikaboo in there too but he’s already switched to Feral 
.
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so because you dont play your class to its full potential then they should balance the class around you instead of someone who does play it correctly? do you understand how difficult that would be and how inconsistent it would be to balance around people who dont play the class correctly.
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Rogues can find ways to squeeze DPS out of a turnip so that is why BlizZard tries to keep us down like .gov does and the IRS.
But we will always find away to excel despite the nerfs and roadblocks!
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I understand where you’re coming from.
My viewpoint is you’re talking about balancing an entire class around 1% of the population. I and the vast majority of the people here don’t have thousands of hours to dedicate to learning to play a class to that level. Balancing around the people who do seems a little ridiculous: you’re talking about an entire class not being playable.
It’s also not about playing it correctly or not. It’s how utterly punishing it is if you don’t. There’s simply no leeway.
I also don’t have a fix or a suggestion honestly because of what you said too. I don’t know how you’d either simplify things or change things so it’s not utterly broken for the top players but they’ve figured it out in the past and I’m hoping they figure it out here too.
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they makin sub rogue support spec. we are just ccbots with small burst.
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what you need is a re work of the class at that point and not a balance change. the balance changes will always be a situation of making the the best of the current situation.
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Sub needs a mini rework and it will be ready to go!
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the removal of shadowdust brought the skill ceiling down btw.
Up, uppity up. The skill ceiling is sky high because you have to do more with less now.
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That is insane, you had to use a spreadsheet with shadowdust to hit boss windows and special mob windows. That is a lot harder than having static cd window every 90 seconds
Spreadsheet or not you had more flex with Invigorating Shadowdust.
Now you have less flex it is all about trade offs!
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You didnt list a single thing about Sub itself that contributes to why you feel its hard. CC, comps, and general synergy affect any class/spec.
Rogue as a class is punishing if you mess up. Thats how its designed. Theres nothing wrong with that.
You’re absolutely correct. The reason is because I don’t really quite know why it’s as broken as it is, other than the reasons I listed about why I think it’s so utterly punishing. You have to be on top of literally everything and can’t make any mistakes or you lose, which is a bit ridiculous. No other class has that type of necessity and are far more forgiving.
I figured there were going to be a lot of people that were going to come out of the woodwork who were going to tell me it’s a L2P issue and kind of what you mentioned as well, that there’s nothing wrong with it being complicated, and while I don’t disagree my issue is I think it’s too complicated.
Again, this is also coming from someone who has 3-kids and only gets 10-15hrs a week to play.
My brother and I started working on skirmishes together in preparation for Ranked and we had far more success on my Feral. The rotation is easier, it has good DD and it has great DoT damage. Maybe one issue with Rogue right now is it’s either good DD or good DoT’s, whereas Feral has both automatically.
I don’t know if you could do things like add a Bleed to the first Cheap Shot out of stealth like Rake does, or have talents where you could make Rupture or Backstab AoE in Sub, possibly change Evasion so that it’s ALL damage and not just what you’re facing. I was thinking it would be great to also change Flagellation so that it’s not nearly as powerful but would instead apply to the first attack in Shadow Dance. Simple things like that would make the class far more accessible in my opinion, remove button bloat, and make the rotation simpler too.
If you have constructive suggestions though I’m all ears as it seems the spec just isn’t good without an R1 player behind it, and maybe Blizz could pull some ideas from here 
.
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Less Dances now without Invigorating Shadow dust. Which means you can not misuse a Feint charge assuming you take Feint Elusiveness as Sub. Outlaw can use a Feint charge prematurely, because it has CDR so Outlaw is more forgiving.
Sub requires Bugatti level precision and mathematics to play peak performance now in PVE and PVP!
This is the big misconception that BlizZard has about more buttons. They think it makes it more complicated which is not true.
When they pruned Rogue tools from WoD into Legion the players that were able to adapt with less buttons were experienced Rogue players. Why?
Because they could time when to use Evasion, CloS, Feint, Crimson Vial, Vanish, etc. New players suffered because they did not have Prep anymore to fall back on.
It may seem counter intuitive to think about but the less buttons you have to work with the more calculated you have to be to maximize DPS and survivability. Your margin of error decreases. Those are the facts ladies and gentlemen.
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OP has a point with the feral comparison.
why play assa rogue when its just feral lite? sub and feral are not the same so its not that fair of a comparison. but yeah, why would you gimp yourself and play assa and have to play better vs being a feral and have much more room for error. assa just feels meh in pvp because both hero talent systems suck, the marked for death mechanic feels bad having to press ambush to stack it, idk why they did this but removed dance from the class tree. blizz really is just dumb as this point, the community cries about not having to play around stealth windows but then make a hero tree that plays around stealth windows and is only good for sub since they have 2 dance charges with a CDR mechanic…
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Feral is more forgiving as is WW Monk.
The problem is that Rogues need to have a lot of their restrictions loosened up for PVE and PVP play. I have to admit the changes to make SND refresh is a nice QoL start because Rogue rotations for PVE and PVP were starting to become cumbersome, complex and very unforgiving.
Complexity is fine if you are rewarded but Rogues do not have Feral level damage in PVP if the stars align.
And Feral has less restrictions when it comes to CC and survivability in PVP which you can kind of see carry over into PVE side.
That is why BlizZard took Feint off the GCD because they do not want Rogue to fall behind other classes for the modern game and how it has evolved.
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I’m not going to lie, I was really concerned people were going to come out of the woodwork and tell me I just didn’t know what I’m doing.
I’m sure that’s partially the case but it’s nice to see I’m not totally off base here.
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Ive mained Sub rogue since cata, and im a 2500+ exp player in multiple brackets. But i will say, it is definitely more difficult to enjoy ANY class that has to rely on SO MANY MODIFIERS to be decent or good. A skilled rogue can ALMOST one shot right now if they have several modifiers up. Like darkest night with blades, dance, badge, finality, animacharged point, with DFA, AMD finally weapon enchants up… having all tjat while focusing on CC windows. Its kinda annoying.
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