BFA vs Classic

Probably the same reason you spam this forum thinking people care about yours LOL1112


Hmmm, the more I see of Kevin Jordan the more I like him. For instance, did you notice he listened to the the full Black Sabbath album on his youtube history?

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I’m only 23 minutes in and it is obvious, thanks Ion for being honest at least.

Modern WoW is just chasing higher and higher iLevels to do the next patch content, which will be made irrelevant soon™.

Kevin Jordan points out all of the places where the game has become a treadmill with no purpose other than dangling a carrot.

Edit 1:

Ion and Lore speak about the game in terms of analytics and the mean average time a subscribed player is in the game etc. All of this is carrot on a stick talk, keep the carrot interesting so people play.

In Vanilla and BC I played a lot with no reward because I was just having fun playing the game with people. After a certain point there was nothing in Karazhan for me, no gear and I didn’t need badge loot, I was there to have fun with my friends.

I feel like at 30 minutes into the video that concept is something they just don’t understand anymore. There is no eggheaded way to measure logging in because your friends are in the game and there is stuff you can go do together.


Depending on the class and the encounter… yes they did.

A mage in Molten Core on a single-target fight. You spammed Frostbolt. That’s virtually ALL you did.

  • you had mana gem, mana pots and evocation - but you only pressed those when mana got low. They weren’t part of your main rotation.
  • you spammed decursive on fights with curses. But most fights didn’t have curses.
  • 99% of your time was spent spamming frostbolt.

When you count PVP and AOE, mages did cast more than one spell. However, when compared to Retail WoW, ALL specs of mages in Vanilla had much simpler rotations than Retail WoW. It’s not even remotely close.

That’s one small bit of content, but ok. Outside of MC Mages did a whole lot more.


I love this video, thank you for digging it up , Williams.

Ion and Lore are literally talking about metrics and measuring fun.

Kevin Jordan is talking about fun as an emotion and a connection and looking forward to being in the game doing the thing.

I can’t word it any better than the man himself, definitely watch if you want the fine points.


Well yeah.

But for mages the rotations in Vanilla were still quite a bit simpler than they are in Retail today. And that applies to ALL content and all mage specs, not just Molten Core.

I can’t speak for other classes though. I mostly just played my mage in Vanilla.

Ion needs to back to designing raids. He is ruining WoW with his out-of-touch BS.


That’s one cherry-picked class, in one cherry-picked dungeon, and it’s still not even an accurate statement because you had to add caveats.

Don’t be a jive turkey. Muted.


Heavily dependent on what you’re doing in either game.

Lore seems cool with it, so all is well.


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For all group and solo PVE and for all group and solo PVP. Basically for everything in the game…

… Vanilla mage rotations were a lot simpler to play than Retail mage rotations.

That might not be the case for all other classes. But it is definitely the case for mages.

In general most actual combat rotations were simpler in vanilla than they are in retail. Now don’t get me wrong between multiple spell ranks and pre prune classes had a lot more in their spell books, but you weren’t using most of it routinely.

I would not encourage any mage to use only frost bolt in any format of PVP.
I would not even encourage a mage to use only frost bolt in Dungeon play.

I guess if a player does not want to contribute and they’re more interested in allowing a drinking bird to play their character for them; sure then Frost bolt spam would work for the “Backup” player who you bring when you can’t find anyone other than that guy who’s on and only knows about max rank frost bolt.

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Frostbolt spam was for Molten Core and maybe BWL.

Elsewhere in Vanilla it was mostly fireball with fireblast. Maybe scorch if there wasn’t enough time for a Fireball.

However, even the most complex Vanilla mage rotation was a lot less complex than any mage rotation in Retail today.

The gameplay was just a lot more simplistic back in Vanilla. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just the way it was.

Can you cast a frostbolt as a fire mage in retail wow?

You had to worry about mana in Classic, not in BFA. That’s a different level of complexity that retail doesn’t have…



But that doesn’t mean playing a fire mage in Vanilla WoW was harder or more complex than playing one in Retail.

The fire mage rotation in Retail WoW involves pressing quite a few more buttons in just the right order and at just the right time compared to Vanilla WoW.

It has a higher learning curve and is much harder to perform optimally with than in Vanilla WoW.

This is by design on Blizzard’s part. Blizzard felt that the rotations of many classes were too simple and spent a lot of time making them more complex.

So… you’re saying that in retail you actually have LESS of a toolkit than in vanilla?


I know it’s easy to poke fun at Frost bolt spam in MC, but that’s not really mage play at all, it only existed at the very base of PVE raiding for the base level player.

Rolling ignite trading between mages and the play style behind that is actually a lot more complicated than anything BFA has to offer. Sounds simple on the surface but it’s actually very complicated.

Frost PVP is actually fairly complex, shatter combo, setting up sheep sheering, and a number of other quirky little things that they had to do just to survive VS teams. That does not even include use of mana / frost barriers, amp magic vs other options, how to use frost / fire warding and numerous other abilities like placing detect magic to actually know what buffs are up and play wisely.

Lets also not forget mana management, also super critical in PVP and PVE.