All these headaches about tuning and overhauling disc/spriest/holy … all because they wanted to go borrowed power in Legion
They tried to ram through class & spec overhauls to fit the artifact weapons.
Bad reason to overhaul a class/spec
4 Likes
i understand the frustration of this. But if we keep letting them slide with the current state of a priest, then I’m afraid this pattern will always reoccur.
Blizzard needs to be held accountable.
We are in phase 2 of alpha and we have yet to get an update on the priest. If people would put much more energy into the class design itself rather than POWER INFUSION, then we could have had a motion going already.
it is what it is and whats done is done. Whats left is to move forward and let our voice be heard. The most realistic conclusion to fix the class itself is a Redesign, a whole new look into this class itself IMO.
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I don’t think you are wrong. I am just tired of them bandaging certain classes and letting them feel like a half state through the expansion.
Ever since i’ve came back to wow, i’ve been pushing for a few things.
Talent trees – Talents that empower the class itself and change how abiltiies work. Maybe some very few abilities. Also the ability to chose between two talents or passive (like we have it now).
Reworks – Classes are the core of any game. If they feel incomplete or bad, then the game experience won’t be up to par.
PVP gear – like they are doing now in DF.
PVP solo QUE and group que system like league.
Now that we have new devs, i was really hoping we were going to get reworks with the new talent system. I am a bit disappointed that this wasn’t the case, butt i am still pushing it because realistically we shouldn’t be leaving things halfway done!
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Absolutely. It’s the definition of putting the cart before the horse.
2 Likes
I liked the WotLK (I think) version that was % dmg done healed the priest when not on CD, but could be used as a CD to make it raidwide
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Topic of the day: Shadow talents that are massively undertuned.
While tuning hasn’t happened yet, the tier 9 talents are currently all extremely weak, so much, that likely no tuning can even salvage them.
Unleash the Shadow currently is a 10% procrat for two points on Vampiric Touch crits. Using current endgame stats, you’re looking at roughly 1 apparition spawned every 1.5 minutes, per target. That’s not even the worth of a Mind Flay tick.
Void Apparitions are a 10% chance to make apparitions 20% stronger. Apparitions are maybe 10% of your damage. The talent buffs Apparitions by about 2%. Asp. Spirits buffs Apparitions by 15%, and gives them 1 Insanity. Whatever is done (higher procrate, more damage), the talent will always just be a worse Asp. Spirits.
Abyssal Knowledge buffs your DoTs, which are maybe 15% of your damage, by 15%, at the cost of three points when channeling Mind Flay. You roughly channel MF for 40% of the time. That’s a DPS gain of less then 1% at the cost of 3 talent points.
Rot and Wither saves you GCDs for more Mind Flay casts. At it’s current value, you’ll roughly see a 8 second DoT extension per minute. That’s one GCD or two Mind Flay ticks every two minutes. That’s slightly better then Unleash… Above all though, this talent lacks consistency, something DoT extensions 100% need.
Sanguine Teachings has a mechanical problem of “you need to be shielded”. If we assume a 25% shield uptime (which is likely still to high), we’re again looking at <1% dps gain for three talent points (technically 6 talent points, as you are forced to pick mental fortitude)
If we take the passive stat-point talents as rough target for value per point, you’d expect a ~2% increase per point. The above talents are all likely below a 1% damage increase at a cost of two to three points. Each of these talents would probably need a 200% or (significantly) higher increase in their numbers to
4 Likes
I would like to see Mind sear be NOT required to take in order to get dispersion and silence, they don’t seem to belong in the same talent row at all.
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Bored and desperate for priest tree updates, so just making my own class tree…
Shackle is baseline, Renew and PoM with their talents go to the Holy tree, which is too sparse in talents, and they’re kind of not that wanted on Disc/Shadow.
Row 1:
- Holy Word: Life
- Shadow Word: Death
Row 2:
- Holy Word: Chastise (now the stun instead of Psychic Horror)
- Life and Sanity (increases HW:L health threshhold) - from HW:L
- <Holy Nova/Mind Sear> - from HW:L and SW:D
- Death and Madness (with mana regen added) - from SW:D
- Shadow Mend - from SW:D
Row 3:
- Smite and MF reduce Chastise CD - from Holy Word: Chastise
- Disease Dispel - from HW: Chastise and MS
- Improved Nova/MS (same as Imp Nova) - from HN/MS
- Offensive Dispel - from HN/MS and Shadowmend
- Masochism - from Shadowmend
Row 4:
- Enlightment (now with int bonus) - from Disease Dispel and Imp. Chastise
- Unwavering Will - from Disease Dispel
- Mass Dispel - from Disease and Offensive Dispel
- Imp MB - from Offensive Dispel
- Twist of Fate - from Offensive Dispel and Masochism
Row 5
- Dispersion - from Enlightment and Mass Dispel
- < Angelic Feather/Body and Soul > from Mass Dispel
- Mind Control - from Mass Dispel and Twist of Fate
- Throes of Pain - from Twist of Fate (2 points)
Row 6:
- Lights Inspiration - from Enlightment and Dispersion (Desperate Prayer and Dispersion apply HoT) (2 points)
- Vampiric Embrace - from Dispersion (also works with heals)
- Imp AF/B&S - from AS/B&S - increase duration of the speed buff
- Dominate Mind - from MC
- Shadowfiend - from Throes of Pain (mana regen in)
Row 7:
- Angel’s Mercy - from Light’s Inspiration - damage taken reduce Disp and Desp. Prayer CD
- San’layn - from Vampiric Embrace
- <Leap of Faith, Reverse Leap of Faith> - from Vampiric Embrace, Improved AF/B&S and Dominate Mind
- Puppet Master - from Dominate Mind and Shadow Fiend
Row 8:
- Boon of the Ascended - from Angel’s Mercy
- <Divine Star/Halo> - from San’layn, Leap of Faith, Puppet Master
- Mindbender - from Shadowfiend
Row 9:
- Anima Accelerator - from Boon of the Ascended (2 points)
- Power Infusion - from Boon of the Ascended and Divine Star
- Translucent Image - from Divine Star (2 points)
- Mind Games - from Divine Star and Mindbender
- MB Heals - from Mindbender (2 points)
Row 10:
- Sphere’s Harmoy - from Anima Accelerator
- Twins of the Sun Priestess - from PI
- Wickedness - from Translucent Image
- Shadow Word: Manipulation - from Mindgames
- <Shadowflame Prism, Warlords Mindbender Setbonus> - from MB Heals
The bottom part of the Holy Tree is the hardest one to budget atm. I can’t fit in Resonant Words. There’s too many 2 point sinks.
Those Rune talents are mandatory picks because with Light of the Naaru, Holy Oration, and 2 of those Rune talents your Holy Words reset way faster which equals out to more Salvation casts.
Gales of Song is a mandatory pick because it makes Divine Hymn actually good. Divine Word is the only bottom talent worth it for healing. Lightwell is just still outright garbage.
I don’t have the same budget issues on the top and middle parts. https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/priest/holy/BOBUJUCkhUVEEUSYBAMVVUVUQZWSRgEBV
3 Likes
I mean… Devil’s advocate here, I guess, but this is absolutely untrue. If Unleash the Shadow became a 100% proc rate, it would be a much stronger talent. Same thing if you took Void apparitions and just said it turns all apparitions into void apparitions, etc.
When something is a numbers problem it’s always 100% fixable if you’re looking at it in a vacuum.
That said god, please no do not bring boon back and offer it to shadow. That made the playstyle significantly worse.
TBH I don’t even think it was a good spell to USE for holy/disc either. It is just horribly overpowered in the current M+ season. Still extremely clunky and feels really weird in the middle of spending globals on healing.
3 Likes
This makes logical and thematic sense.
Sparked an idea of mine…
Row 2:
- Power Word: Twilight
After casting Power Word: Shield on any target, gain a personal absorb shield for 10% of all Holy and Shadow spell hits for the next 3 sec. Lasts 10 sec.
Note: Basically, this is the Discipline version of Holy Word: Life and Shadow Word Death where you gain passive damage absorb for 10% of all healing/damage done in the following 3 sec. Values can be adjusted.
I see this as a personal modified version of Divine Ageis, can even use the same graphic but have it a twilight color tone to it.
This is a modified version of Charitable soul though…
And I don’t see any reason to pick that for shadow and holy (the same goes for charitable soul that is in the class talent)
1 Like
I know this has popped up a bit already, but I’m curious how people feel about the thematic part of priest, specifically in regards to shadow being this “void/insanity” thing.
Personally I wish they’d move away from it and go back to more of the “dusk/dawn, Holy/Shadow” sort of “twilight” juxtaposition, I feel like the void theme is really hindering the entire potential of the class because it’s so disconnected.
We need stuff that brings holy and shadow together, priest that utilize all the tools at their disposal, words of empowerment and words of harm, the holy light and the calming shadows to heal. It feels like it should be better overall because outside of void bolt and our resource being called “insanity” what is really connecting us to the void?
I loved the dagger and I’m not suggesting retcon that out but I think stuff like Dark Arch, spectral guise, and even stuff we already have like vampiric touch/embrace, disperse, and mind blast make more sense to be well and truly “shadow” spells.
Void torrent could easily be shadow torrent, void bolt could just be mind spike as a throwback to that ability.
I say most of this from a shadow perspective, but I think it gives a lot more room for holy and disc to dip back into shadow abilities as well, without having them feel so disconnected. I think it would be overall really good for the class, because the trees definitely need work, and it seems like as long as they are keeping the specs so isolated from each other, they are going to have problems.
4 Likes
It would be cool to have talents in the priest tree that synergize with “Word” spells though, since all priests use them. So like, whenever you cast a word spell you get x% leech for 10 seconds (would help a lot with mitigating the dangers of SW:D). Or like the holy thing now, where your next spell cast after a word spell gets bonus effect. Could be a boring x% increase to your next direct single target damage/healing spell.
Or could also do something more fun, disc I think had something similar with sw:P and pennace. And shadow could steal something from feral’s kit if your word spells buffed your dots when you reapplied, would have to actually make you thoughtful with dot casts again, and would make any dot extensions you got more valuable too.
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I would love to go in this direction, and blizzard could really go into more of a damage to healing direction for priest, like we had for a long time. Could even go full circle. Add in a talent that buffs devouring plague based on the healing you’ve done over the last x seconds, or ramps up in damage based off the healing you do while the dot is up. Would be nice to tie our spells and identity together.
And heck, there are people who like the void stuff. Give them part of the tree to be all edgy. But the core of the spec needs to be more coherent, and the class as a whole needs to be more coherent, so blizzard needs to turn away from void.
1 Like
Charitable Soul just gave some healing.
This gives you an actual absorb shield on top of a power word: Shield for yourself to make you a bit more tanky without it being so overpowered where others get the damage absorb.
It’s like a mini vampiric embrace that grants damage absorb instead of healing.
I’m not sure how you don’t see how good this can be without being overpowered if others got it. It also won’t affect discipline absorbs and makes holy a bit more durable as well.
Like please explain why you think it’s not that attractive as a talent? I must be missing something.
Honestly, giving devs ideas for spells is pointless. They’re going to do what they need to do to make priest suck. You’re just wasting your time by writing out tooltips and equations. If you think the priest trees are changing, you’re delusional - the devs hate priests.
It’s part of the cosmology. Shadow is tied to old gods/void like Light is tied to the Naaru. There’s a difference in that Holy leans less heavily on the Naaru aspects, and most of the naaru flavor is straight up just passives. But Shadow’s already sort of had the void theming from the very start. ‘Mind Blast’ isn’t a “shadow-themed” spell. If anything it’s psychic-themed. And who are the traditional mind-altering enemies ever since, well, AQ even? Old gods. It makes sense that the shadow magic we were pulling from is shared with them.
But I don’t think void form itself was a huge mistake or anything, or that the void theming can’t work.
Shadow’s problems mostly stem from their gameplay mechanics. And DF’s changes to it are mostly negative probably because they don’t have anyone experienced enough in Shadow Priest’s design anymore after the designer working on it left.
The talents DF is introducing to Spriest feel like someone looked at the spec and made guesses as to what would go well. IE: ‘Hmm what would a shadow priest like? Well, I mean, they seem to be a builder/spender, so more insanity generation is probably key. Let’s give them a ton of that!’ Meanwhile, Shadow is drowning in insanity already and spending it is already becoming a traffic problem with your globals. So giving them… well, EVERY talent that increases insanity gen at once is just not actually good for the gameplay.
Then they’ve gone contradictory with the redesign of dark thoughts into vampiric insight. That was a great change to move away from flay casting. But uh… then they made a ton of talents to all buff mind flay, and brought back eternal call to the void for even more of it?
None of this is related to a ‘void theme,’ as it were. Just big design mistakes.
2 Likes
Did they change Unwavering Will in the general tree? I remember it being 20% faster cast speed with 2 points originally, which was enough to give us almost the same cast speed benefit of Flash Concentration. I was planning on using it and pumping out 45% boosted prayer of healing if aoe was needed in a raid spec. https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/priest/holy/BPBEJUGkhUFUBUSIBBAMVVURUVJWQZgEBU
That said, I absolutely do not want to take any shadow talents as a Holy Priest. If it kneecaps me, I’ll live with it.
Do you think Naaru are related to old gods?