Maybe today. PTR updates seem to be coming on Tuesdays before the beta updates on Wednesday. I’m pretty sure we’re going to see the proposals they made last week implemented as well as some surprises.
I’m still copeful.
Twin Suns isn’t particular useful for a raid healing Priest because in most circumstances you’re using PI on a chosen DPS in the raid at open and whenever their cds come back up and they call for it. At fight open all you’re really doing is maybe throwing some dps or a few heal toppings around. If I do get PI on myself it’s only really going to make me oom myself faster unless I manage to line it up with Holy Word Salvation.
I fail to see what your post is trying to convey regarding my post.
I guess I would ask, what does that have to do with my idea?
I’m hoping on this too, even though today beta just got last week patch lmao
For me, twins is an extremely powerful for shadow while not that big a deal for healers in PVE exactly for the reasons you mentioned.
And as disc, ramps and dps cd timings is more often than not going to be on different timings.
For M+, I can see it being okay for disc, wouldn’t care so much for holy (at least healing wise)…
Pvp I feel is kind of the same thing as M+, as far as interest goes for this as a healer. Plus, they can be dispelled easily I believe.
For shadow, I feel this is an extremely powerful node though. I wouldn’t say that it should be removed, but it does feel like a capstone level node at the very least.
I honestly don’t see PI being used as Disc or Holy’s personal cd on progression if dps matters and you’re trying to push damage times. There’s actual spreadsheets that usually tell you which classes are the best to use PI on. It also depends on the fight and how your healing officer sets up everyone’s cds.
I’d probably not take Twin Suns for raid healing as Holy unless the times can line up. Even then it’s only worth blowing PI if you’re using Divine Word or Holy Word Salvation.
I’m just saying that it’s a node that has a lot of value as shadow while healers priests is just “fine”. Haste is always fun as a healer although it’s always a double edged sword because you oom faster. Priests aren’t actually known for never oom-ing, I don’t beleive it’s going to change in DF…
Feels like this should be at the capstone level just because it’s such a strong choice for shadow (at least twins)
Let’s talk about Twins of The Sun Priestess for a moment, @Thelarias (and with total respect for your point of view). I like the IDEA of the talent, and I like benefitting my group through unique abilities that only my class brings. It’s something I would have loved for Blizzard to consider with Vampiric Embrace (but instead they nerfed this).
So, something to keep in mind is that the “Value” of Twins of the Sun Priestess that you are mentioning for Shadow is likely to suffer a “tax” by Blizzard tuning Shadow’s damage down to compensate. So the overall value of the group stays the same, but your personal shadow dps goes down.
I will offer my respectful disagreement with keeping the Twins of the Sun Priestess talent around. I think this talent really devalues the shadowpriest’s personal dps. And there’s a double whammy here: Consider this: unless you are in a cutting edge group with a lot of coordination and communication, how often are you going to make sure you are lining up your power infusion so that both you and the other dps get it with cd’s lined up? How often are you going to make really sure that both you AND the other dps got max benefit? Because unless you both had cd’s up and running, a lot of PI’s value just got dumped.
That means Twins will have an outsized effect for highly coordinated groups and will get much less “value” from heroic raiders and LFG +15-17 key players (like myself) - BUT, and this is important, people in this latter category will STILL suffer the Twins “tax” on our personal dps even regardless of whether we are using the talent well.
All this to say, I’ll do my best to optimize Twins as much as possible, but I don’t run with groups that will get full value out of it, and I’d love to see the talent replaced with a talent that has more widespread appeal for players of varying skill levels/group coordination, and one that doesn’t devalue my personal dps tuning.
What I can foresee is an entire expac of getting whispers from dps players asking for PI, and me running an addon/macro that auto casts it on my focus target or some such, and just firing it off whenever it is most convenient for my personal cd’s. That’s if I choose to play priest at all…right now mobility and utility getting relatively worse compared to what other classes are getting PLUS our AoE capacity getting stripped/confused is really putting me off of Shadow.
Finally, Twins of the Sun Priestess will have zero benefit for you when running solo content, whatever that looks like in Dragonflight. Unless you can PI your mindbender? Just tested that…at least on the PTR you cannot give your mindbender PI. Does the talent not working or helping in solo content mean it’s trash? No, of course not, but it’s just ONE MORE DOWNSIDE to a talent that I see with many downsides. Remember, if I’m right, Blizzard will have adjusted Shadow’s personal dps down to compensate for Twins’ value in groups, so not only will the talent have no benefit to you in solo play, but you will also be less effective in solo content because you don’t do as much personal dps. Food for thought!
Your mileage may vary, of course. I welcome others’ thoughts.
It’s possible this happens. But I think it’s more likely Twins gets removed before that change makes large impact. And considering parsing sites are talking about changing how they show dps based on external CDs, they can attribute any external DPS they remove from someone back to the giving priest if they wanted to. This would make it specifically a problem for people who want to stare at their details meter.
That said, they’ve NEVER released solo content so brutally hard that the low personal dps classes couldn’t complete it. The closest they came is high level torghast, and it wasn’t the class DPS that was the problem but rather that some classes had horrendous torghast powers that contributed really poorly.
The changes to PI/Twins were likely done specifically for shadow BECAUSE shadow lines its CDs up with PI, and they don’t want to have the whole ‘share your pi’ problem. The design is to eliminate the complaint that top players will ask for Spriests to share their PI. Now they always share it - but gain it themselves as well.
Why would you have to? In a casual group you just hit the button on another class with 2 minute CDs. That’s it. The amount of people that hold their CDs for a significant amount of time is very low, usually fight dependent, and when that fight dependent scenario shows up the spriest is going to be holding too.
Just PI a class with 2 minutes and you’re fine.
Good, so don’t take it. That’s the point of it being a talent. You’re going to take Void Shield to get to throes/the right side anyway, so Twins isn’t blocking you from anything if you choose not to take it.
Hiya Capslockfury =)
I really appreciate your thoughts. I had to take a little time to consider what you said. I have a couple of thoughts in response to what you said:
I’m curious what makes you think this? Not saying you are right or wrong, but what is your rationale? If we were to assume Blizzard thinks about the talent in the same way as your post indicates, why wouldn’t they be okay with keeping it?
PI is a haste buff, it doesn’t do it’s own damage (I know you know that, I’m not trying to be snarky). So, how would a parsing site be able to determine how much damage to “give back” to the shadow priest? I’m not sure this is very likely to occur. I think, at best, what is likely to occur is that the player receiving our PI will have a footnote on their parse saying that they received the external PI. But the shadow priest giving the PI won’t be “awarded” any extra damage.
I want to be honest with myself (and with others) - sure, I “stare” at details meter at times. I’m sure there are dps players out there that don’t look at their meter…I’ve yet to meet them. All I can say is that, truthfully speaking, I and most of my friends are aware of the meter and refer to it (stare at it?) in addition to looking at parsing sites. I’m not saying me or my group of friends are right to do this, but I’ve grown accustomed over the years to being around others in every group I’ve ever run with, that refer to their in-game meter.
So, having said that, does it bother me that there may be a hidden “tax” on my personal dps because of the presence of the Twins talent…I admit it, it does.
In my experience, the amount of desync that occurs between players’ cd’s over the course of a dungeon is being underestimated by your comment. Even when running with friends, when I ask: “are you cd’ing this pack” I am often surprised by the answer, with what seemed intuitive to me is not how my friend saw it. It probably depends on other factors like the differing damage profiles. A class that excels at burst aoe is more likely to burn their cd’s immediately upon pull of a large pack, whereas a class with ramp up may wait.
It doesn’t take holding cd’s a significant amount of time, it only takes desyncing by a little each time before they can become completely desynced by the end of the dungeon.
Again, I expect this is something that will be readily resolved by higher level groups (of which I do not belong to), but by contrast, other groups just hitting PI on cd will lose quite a bit of value. To be fair, this is true of most talents, right? Higher level players routinely get more value from their abilities than lower skilled players. I get that. What I am complaining about is the hidden “tax” players like myself will suffer around balancing the talent.
All in all, your post gave me time to reconsider the Twins talent. I appreciate that. It isn’t a make or break deal for me if they keep it or remove it, but I stand by what I originally said and my hope is for removal of said talent.
(what will be make or break for me as to playing Shadow - will blizz fix our AoE?)
It’s very unlikely this is ever possible with pi specifically. Blessing of summer it’d be easy, but untangling the implications of 25% haste for 20 seconds to attribute it to the priest would be impossible.
The meme parsing with PI is when people get like 10-15 of them an entire fight vs 1-3.
Unlikely, but not impossible. Hadn’t the WCL people said they want to do more here? They already allow for filtering out logs with externals vs without. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to do at all. But if they have plans on doing more - this is the logical followup, especially with their sister site for FFXIV doing this very thing.
I’d like to propose a change to Dark Void.
Remove the cooldown.
Have it generate 2 insanity per target hit.
Have it apply 9 seconds of shadow word:pain to an uncapped number of targets near the primary target.
Have it spread VT from the primary target to 1 nearby target.
Have it increase damage targets take from shadowy apparitions.
The difficulty, I imagine, is mostly because it’s haste, sometimes allowing you to act when you otherwise can’t and the weird math of haste breakpoints.
You could technically attribute 20% of all damage done during PI to the Priest, but that wouldn’t strictly be accurate. Maybe you just take all damage done in the last 20% of PI and attribute that to the Priest, but that feels extra gross and wrong and also doesn’t take into account extra casts in CDs shorter than PI.
The most technically accurate way would be to try and simulate what would’ve happened had PI not been cast, which is a very weird space.
I’ve heard a lot of talk about difficulty finding “direction” and “identity” for both Void Form and Dark Ascension. I think this is a good point in your build to decide if you are trying to go for a DoT or direct damage kind of playstyle.
Establish (clearly) that Void Form is your DoT-based DPS CD. Bake Damnation into Void Bolt. Make it a longer CD with the same functionality as live.
So, activate Void Eruption. It does some AoE damage, then you hit Void Bolt. It applies VT, SW:P, and DP. after 6 seconds, you can hit it again, refreshing the durations, but not stacking the damage of DP. (or do, whatever. More DOTS). It also applies a 15%(?) (To DoT damage ONLY) debuff. (This is essentially baking in Hungering Void, but more on that later. This could just be another talent point right below it. However at least Void Form now has that clear distinction that "your target is now taking more DoT damage)
-Reduces button bloat by getting rid of the option for damnation.
-Damnation is shaping out to be rarely picked over Void Torrent anyway.
-Adjusting the CD still allows you to hit the button ~4 times during Void Form without feeling GCD bloat. Esp during power infusion on live, I get to points where I don’t even know what to hit between free mind blast, DP, or another bolt.
-Gives Void Form that “identity” of more DoT damage, rather than just a cool form.
-Player feels that DoT damage ramp up during this time and knows they had an effect.
So, what do we do with Void Torrent, now that its on a node by itself?
Bake Shadow Crash and Dark Void in together, then make Void Torrent a choice node between these two.
-There’s really no reason to have both Crash and Void when Misery exists. Opening on a pack and hard casting Shadow Crash, which also applies Pain through Misery, only to hard cast Dark Void to… apply more pains feels bad. Void is already rarely gonna be picked over misery. Just strike a balance - Shadow crash hit 8 targets. Applies VT/Pain to 5 or 6 of them. Pain lasts 5 additional seconds baseline. (A great AoE/DoT talent) vs Void Torrent. (A great single target talent)
Dark Ascension is ok for now, being that its clearly to buff direct damage like Mind Blast and Mind Spike. Below this choice node of Void Form/DA could be another choice node to buff these. Or just bake Hungering Void (extends duration every time you hit bolt) and for DA: give it something similar to the current priest 4 pc SOFO set. A shadowy figure appears above you that casts Mind Blast/Spike/Flay/Some bursty shadowy spell.
This solves: button bloat. We’ve eliminated Damnation and Dark Void.
CD identity. Players now clearly see if they like a DoT/AoE playstyle, go Void Form. if you like a single target, direct damage build, go DA.
except they aren’t touching DA/VF. It’ll be a 10.2 problem, maybe 10.1.5 if we’re lucky. (not holding my breath, not my first time playing shadowpriest). Either way, I don’t care, pick one of them and roll with it. I don’t understand all these priests crying about voidform when DA is the same problem.
Shadow crash should be uncapped and hit everything with VT, and you spec misery. 2 talents to make aoe spread ok… Which is a 1 talent option for warlocks. Thanks.
Dark void should be our aoe spender for 50 insanity + blows up any existing nzoth stacks (or you know, interacts with our capstone idols) (ysharj makes baby shadow fiends… yogg procs + cleaves… Cthun summons big noodle mid pack that does a twirly and smacks all mobs for a slow+dmg)… that kinda stuff. Also making our st spender DP interact in a similar fashion would make you know, our talent choices more impactful and controllable.
Revert mind sear to be our aoe generator that has % chance to trigger apparitions.
Agreed remove Damnation / move to pvp.
Void torrent (please give mind flay the glyph to look like torrent) should be a pop and keep chugging along, like our 4 set tier gear right now, summon a shadow that channels it for us and we can keep up our rotations and dots, or just remove it.
I’d rather lose void torrent than shadowmend or mind games.
Remove mind spike. There you go no more button bloat. Bake dmg back into mind blast and mind flay.
Also fix mass dispel (and give it ability to dispel disease + for talent in class tree remove curse/poison), give interrupt to my healer brothers, bake dispersion and silence into shadow spellbook if you refuse to give to class tree, cause there’s 0 reason we need to do this for spec tree. Speccing for lower CD/Stun sure.
Sorry just started writing and just kept ranting, but the first half is pertinent
The current Iteration of Disc in PVP will play EXACTLY like legion except with less and I guess it will NEVER be improved on and every excuse will be made to explain it away and they will probably blame PVP and PVPers being toxic after that as a PR counter-offensive strategy. They will do anything before doing work on the priest class they hate us.
0 new buttons
Infact less buttons than we had previously and less options
Nothing new if they prune the spells they said they would
I’m sick of seeing people die during my pre-dome’s in the arena (had thug cleave kill my rogue even tho I dome’d him at 100% HP last night) . I want us to get a button like vitality conduit not that stupid void shield trash.
I hate void shift always have it’s not fun, it’s got very few skilful interactions and it’s just a lame spell.
Everyone is going to play wrath - at least we have mana burn and no CD mass dispel all our important buttons don’t require a GCD.
The best change they could make is just getting rid of the people doing the trees.
I really wish they just did more cohesive reworks instead of bringing more problems from the past over.
New trees is a great step
Next step would of been reworks to fix the classes.
At this stage, I prefer thar every class does not get everything. But if we are going to keep on this route and supply every spec with mobility, cc, interrupts, self healing, etc, then no class should be left out for w.e bs reason you can come up with.