Gonna stick with ancient teaching of the monastery legendary bc i enjoy the play style. Best Covie and soulbind for that? Max mythic +15 and max heroic raid.
THanks!
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Currently kyrian, next patch you’ll be going venth as you’ll have access to both atotm and sinister teachings at the same time.
Wouldn’t scoff at venth in the meantime though. It’s obviously stronger and the gameplay is basically identical to atotm anyway. You’ll still be in melee and running rising mists. Kyrian is more than fine as an alternative though if you really really want atotm.
Kyrian atotm is amazing. Kleia for all around healer spec or Mikanikos if you’re trying to focus on dmg for keys. There is still a lot of testing being done but I think Call to Arms + Atotm while using Chi-Ji will be incredibly powerful for mw mana control and throughput. Venthyr is ahead numbers wise but there is nothing wrong with staying Kyrian.
Venthyr will be amazing in 9.2 with double legendaries. So I suggest doing that.
Edit: should mention my my posts apply to M+, which has a totally different healing profile and strategy than raiding. Cov matters more in raiding but since you are using ATOTM, you’ll likely want to use Kyrian over Venthyr since Fallen Order will be significantly weaker without the venthyr legendary (which is ok). Since using effective essence fonts is one of the largest factors in your raid healing, having weapons of order to have a double essence font is very strong, as well as powering up your focused healing on the tanks or targets suffering from powerful DoT effects due to the mastery buff.
Anyways with regard to M+:
As a monk who’s been doing MW with ATOTM all expat, the covenant really doesn’t matter all that much, it’s your personal preference.
The only cov that directly impacts your ATOTM output is Necrolord since you can stack up to 3x Tiger Palm then use Bone Dust Brew and Thunder Focus Tea into double rising sun kick and quadruple black out kick (hopefully resetting RSK again) and fit all of that into your bone dust targets for a good boost to ATOTM healing in that moment.
Overall the Cov choice doesn’t matter all that much with MW’s kit and I think it’s best to just choose the covenant which gets you into a group fastest by providing the desired covenant dungeon buff.
In terms of raw healing, Kyrian is the best simply because the huge chunk of mastery from weapons of order and the additional mastery from the Pelagos soul bind is a significant increase to throughput on most of your spells, while the EF reset is meh. Plus Pelagos gives a frequent 10% buff to intellect which is really good for boosting your ATOTM healing.
If you are having trouble with healing, then pick Kyrian and use weapons of order when you need to do extra healing but you don’t need to always use the double essence font, you can just use it as a “mastery trinket” to boost your throughput. Otherwise choose whatever you think is the most fun or gets you into dungeons by providing the buff.
Venthyr really not that much ahead of Kyrian in effective healing or dps.
It’s important to note that Fallen Order has a massive amount of over healing (often 70% overhealing) whereas ATOTM is around 30% overhealing (in reality it’s even less because a significant portion of that over healing is from DPSing while the group is at full health).
Venthyr also loses DPS uptime because it has to hard cast spells to make up for the passive healing that would be done by ATOTM, so even if they can “burst” slightly higher than ATOTM, they lose out on sustained dps and the overall average dps is really not ahead by as much as the Meta would like you to believe.
You keep saying venthyr bas to make up more hard casts but this isn’t really true, with sinister teachings during a big pull like the first pull in SOA or HOA you can literally dps the majority of that pull and let FO heal for you. It’s strong passive healing when it matters, requiring no GCDs from the player, also atotm loses hard whenever a player is far from the monk. Which in a m+ is pretty likely.
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Play whatever you want tbh, but I will note that with two legendarys next tier you can use sinister teachings and atotm. So I’d personally get venthyr ready for when that happens.
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Oh so basically the dungeon is over after the first pull right? /s
On fortified weeks you could assume that first pull in DOS (or really any fortified pull) will take up to 2min to kill especially on a high level key. If you use Fallen Order on the pull, then it lasts roughly 30s. In an ideal scenario, you can get Fallen Orders cooldown to be maybe 1min on average with enough crits. Even if you get Fallen Order off cooldown during that first trash pack, you still will not press it again because it would make more sense to save it for the next trash pack which is also deadly.
This means that you will still have to heal the group for the remaining 1min 30s that Fallen order is not active. During that time, and any time that Fallen order is available but you are saving it for a more dangerous pull, you will inevitably have to hard cast heals such as vivify or enveloping mist to equate to the amount of healing that would be done if you had ATOTM and were doing DPS instead.
This loss of uptime adds up over the course of the dungeon for
A) all the time that Fallen Order is on Cooldown PLUS
B) The time that Fallen Order is available but you do not press it because it would be better to save it for a more dangerous pull (i.e. most of the trash is dead but some is still alive, you still have to do healing and your renewing mists will not suffice to heal it).
Its really not that complicated to understand.
Your lack of understanding is outrageous – having 1-2 players outrange you is not only a nonissue in 95% of cases, but even if it does occur, its a form of RNG manipulation that makes ATOTM more likely to heal the person most likely to be missing health (the tank).
A)If you notice a ranged DPS standing too far away (which seriously does not happen a lot to begin with) you simply ask them to stand a little closer, problem solved and the argument is void. Its literally a nonissue.
B)Even if 1-2 players are out of range, ATOTM will still heal the tank, who is most likely to be missing health, and if you are maintaining high uptime on Enveloping Mist on the tank (which is typical for high level keys), then any healing that is done on the tank by ATOTM is now boosted by mist wrap. This means that you are actually improving the efficiency of ATOTMs healing because it is less likely to heal a random target that does not need healing, and the target it is more likely to heal also has a healing amp effect on them.
With a balanced amount of mastery, you can easily do “RNG manipulation” to make it so that ATOTM is more likely to heal a low health target. An ATOTM RSK will heal for about 20k (roughly 40% of someones health). Renewing Mist on an EF target will heal for about 5-10k (or roughly 10-20% of someones health) depending on conduit procs/crits with around 100% mastery (which is what I reccomend for ATOTM builds).
If your group’s health looks like this:
70%
100%
100%
90%
90%
Then before using RSK, you simply use Renewing Mist on one/both of the 90% health party members. Statistically speaking, this will on average top off one or both of those party members so that it looks like:
70%
100%
100%
100%
100%
and now when you RSK you have reduced the number of potential targets that will be healed by ATOTM to be less random, making it more likely to heal the person who needs it most. This is called RNG manipulation, and is something that you can naturally pick up with ATOTM over time with practice.
The first pull wouldn’t last 2 minutes lol, on fort that pull was dying for my group in about 40 seconds.
Because of Cdr you are pretty much gonna be using FO on cd lol, another thing you shockingly don’t know.
This is where you just start sounding silly, if multiple people are being hit then that immediately destroys this argument, I can think of instances in EVERY dungeon where this is the case. You can’t use atotm here because A) it’s healing alone won’t keep a tank alive and B) your ranged dps are now taking dmg and atotm won’t reach them.
This all sounds niceu, but again you can’t manipulate this to reach further then it actually can, and also it’s healing with RSK is great but not so much outside of that.
Then branch out… dont just consider that first pull with perfect CDs and or lust. Consider a generic fortified pull with affixes like bolstering or sanguine… its not uncommon for pulls to drag out where there are only a few mobs remaining and it does not make sense to use Fallen Order a second time (because the next pull is much more deadly) but you still have to heal the group.
So there are 10 mobs, you us FO. It comes off cooldown and now there are only 3 mobs remaining (so reduced number of possible crit instances), but the next pull has 10 mobs, so youre telling me you go ahead and pop FO on the 3 remaining mobs instead of saving it for the next pull? Yea right.
This is where you are wrong and shows how much you dont actually know anything about ATOTM. First of all, you dont rely solely on ATOTM healing, its just supplemental to your other healing spells. Secondly, you do more overall healing from BoK than from RSK, because not only do you cast way more of them, but a well timed quadruple BoK from 3x TOTM not only heals more than a RSK but it also is more likely to not overheal because each BoK heal can hit different targets so its “smarter” in a way.
Oh, so ur saying that on its own atotm isn’t actually capable of sustaining a group? So you have to use other gcds in order to sustain your group during periods of large dmg? INTERESTING, because with FO that’s not the case, in a lot of cases fo can sustain the group without your intervention, in the cases that isn’t true however, you wouldn’t have to waste nearly as many gcds as I’m betting you do. Less gcds on healing and more on dmg sounds pretty nice.
Bear with me because this is kind of a complicated topic, no sarcasm.
There are different states of HPS demand. Low HPS demand, medium, high, and crazy high.
ATOTM can completely cover low hps, and medium, and reduce the amount of healing GCDs in high demand, but is not super useful in crazy high hps demand.
On the other hand…
You do not use FO to cover low hps, and medium situations, but instead save it for high and crazy high hps demands.
If you analyze the amount of time spent at each hps healing requirement state over the course of a dungeon, you will see that a larger portion of the dungeon is spent in the low and medium HPS demand regimes (situations where you are holding HO for an imminent high or crazy high hps demand scenario on the next pull).
This time in low hps and medium hps scenarios where you do not want to use FO because of an imminent high hps or crazy high HPS scenario adds up over the course of a dungeon to be nontrivial (you cant just write it off), and during these low/medium hps regimes, FO monks are having to use globals to heal that ATOTM does not.
So, ATOTM excels in reducing globals spent on healing during low and medium hps scenarios, which encompass the majority of the dungeon, whereas FO reduces globals in high and crazy high hps scenarios, which occur less often. But in crazy high hps demand scenarios, even venthyr monks will have to spend globals on healing.
So… over the entire dungeon, the sum of the globals spent on healing is less for the ATOTM monk because more of the dungeon is spent in the low/medium HPS regimes where they excel, whereas, the sum of the globals spent on healing is more for FO monk because less of the dungeon is spent in high/crazy high HPS regimes where they excel.
If you factor in all of these things, the two are much closer than the meta monks would like you to think.
Except that isn’t true at all, tanks always take medium to large amounts of dmg in dungeons 15 and up, unless they pull small, in this case you won’t be able to use atotm to keep up with the dmg they are taking so you have to use other globals to keep the tank healthy, and because your build focuses so much on mastery your big healing spells that would lessen the burden on the gcds you need to use (ENVM, renewing mist atotm) aren’t healing for as much. I understand the concept of dmg being low medium or high, however in keys especially the higher you go that dmg profile is almost always high espiecally since the pulls you have to do can’t be small baby pulls if you wnna time said key.
Edits:removed reduncancy, added detail
This is the last time I’m responding to you in this post because it’s like talking to a very forgetful brick. You literally forget everything we talk about in other threads.
A) we’ve already talked about having balanced mastery builds for ATOTM vs pure mastery builds, so the difference in crit/vers is smaller than you are leading on. You might have 42% crit for example but I have 30%, you might have 15% vers and I have 10%. Any difference that makes in vivify/EvM healing is more than made up by mastery.
B)Remember that Gusts of Mist scales much much faster than the rate that your other spells grow in healing power with changes in secondary stats (plus it also benefits from crit/vers too)
It’s kind of like the whole point of my mastery post — having balanced mastery makes it so standard rotational globals that both FO and ATOTM do (ex. REM maintenance or EVM on the tank) do more healing that allows for higher uptime. Even if I have to hard cast vivify, just one of my vivify is 2 of yours on a single target with the balanced mastery build or 3 of yours with a pure mastery build. Vivify cleave will not help you top off a single target missing a lot of health, but mastery will.
C)ATOTM healing is almost always enough to just keep the tank alive if you are doing it right. If he is the only injured target, ATOTM + standard rotational globals that both FO/ATOTM would do is nearly always sufficient. You dont practice ATOTM so it’s healing seems entirely random and unreliable to you, but there are a variety of techniques that can be done to make it so that ATOTM does really good healing. I will try to make a post about it soon.
D) I repeatedly say that ATOTM is supplemental healing, NOT a replacement to healing. That’s why it’s called FISTWEAVING — you still have to weave in healing spells.
Both FO and ATOTM Will have to use some globals on healing with vivify but if you analyze the count over the entire dungeon, ATOTM will use less total globals on vivify than FO.
I really like reading what you have to say about fist weaving because that is the whole reason I run the FW legendary. I love the concept and love it in practice. Do you think the reason we don’t see FW monks in the higher (2600+) m’s is an issue of through-put or is it an issue of practice? everyone I see is running FO. amazing at heals, but kind of boring–you aren’t really doing anything but press a button. Also, I just don’t find that the mana efficiency of caster monks is worth playing.
Also, using rising sun kick to increase your HOTs isn’t fistweaving, which some people says suffices. I vehemently disagree. having your punches heal–THAT’s fistweaving. Dispersing your EF, RM, and EM while you are DPS is the whole point. You have to pull away from the DPS and actually be more of a “caster” but in lower damage moments you can supplement like you are saying.
I am just sad people aren’t running it more because I never run out of mana and have a ton of run in the build.
This is just nonsense to me but whatever, I’d have to see dungeons logs in order to verify what you say because I’m positive you are doing much less dmg then a venthyr monk in dungeons, just going off your WCL I can tell your dmg isn’t being optimized, the next time you do a key log it because I can say with almost absolute certainty you are doing much less then the dmg a venthyr monk the same ilvl would be doing
I think it’s mostly a community driven issue that’s made worse by in game systems.
The modern approach to wow gaming is not to think for yourself or try new things but rather to copy what “the theorycrafters say”.
The first issue arises from the fact that theorycrafting is a hobby of people with jobs/families/etc, so not only is there a limited amount of time they can spend theorycrafting, but there is also a limited amount of time they can play the game and interact with its systems and try new things
Because the systems in game take a lot of time to acquire resources to purchase legendaries, farm renown for new covenants, farm gear and valor to create a gear set with ideal secondary stats for the target build, theorycrafters cannot easily experiment with a maximally optimal setup for a given cov/legendary combination. This makes it so they tend to stick with what they have already invested most of their time/resources into and fail to see possible viable builds that use entirely different cov/legendary/secondary stat builds.
Then, within the theory crafting community, you often run into people who have played the class for a long time and have strong muscle memory and preference for specific play styles that may no longer exist due to changes that occur throughout patches and expansions. These ingrained ways of playing create subconscious biases which influence their future play style recommendations unless they spend a lot of effort to avoid bias from these play style inclinations. If they are not careful, they cannot easily consider someone playing the spec entirely different than the way they do and still be successful (or possibly more successful).
Now, let’s consider some of the crappy social things that happen in WoW nowadays. For example, if theorycrafters say “venthyr monk best” (when in reality it might be only 5% better than other alternative builds)
and someone searches you on raider io and sees that you are playing night Fae, which may be completely viable, but because it’s not the “meta” then they are less likely to include you in the group. This social pressure greatly influences how most people operate in the community. They are now pressured against trying other builds because of social influences in addition to the time/resource cost of investing into gear/renown for other builds.
This doesn’t even begin to get into the popularity/tenure that some theroycrafters have that give them “false credibility” — even if they are completely wrong it doesn’t matter because average people can’t do the calculations (mentally or physically) to theorycraft, they just take these people at their word.
On top of that, the monk community is rather small to begin with, so the pool of possible theorycrafters is even smaller.
Anyways I think yo get my point. It’s not so much about gameplay effectiveness as it is about social influences. I personally think that you could see ATOTM monks at 2600+ if the monk community was more supportive of build diversity, but it’s not. The monk theorycrafting community is run by a handful of tenured elitists who think they know everything but don’t try anything and shun anybody who tries to recommend something other than what they think is best, but won’t even try what that other person is saying.
It’s throughput, purely.
FO throws out far more healing then ATotM can in the same periods.
There’s no real difference in practice because the playstyle to take advantage of either legendary is pretty similar anyway.
And this is the exact reason why I consider the Rising Mist playstyle fistweaving even without ATotM.
This plays into a false narrative that theorycrafting is particularly hard to get into.
It’s pretty much all basic algebra along with necessary in-game observations.
Meanwhile the monk discord turns into hours of testing every time a new build changes anything spec related.
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