t. someone who ignored all canon factual content in the Mists of Pandaria expansion.
This expansion is a direct copy of the events in Mists. The same For the Horde attitude Lor’themar has now, he had then when he was leading it during Mists of Pandaria.
I stand by my opinion that while the sentiment as a whole is very literally bull crap, Baine still represents the Horde better than Sylvanas.
I mean … if you want to talk on a fundamental character-structure level, the guy IS a really good representative of the Horde. He’s a son of one of it founders; grew up and developed in Thrall’s Horde (one that INCLUDES the Forsaken, Goblins, and Elves); His heroes and mentors were Thrall, Saurfang, Vol’jin, and Cairne; Is part of the race that saw the potential for redemption in the Forsaken. Conceptually the guy is LITERALLY a product of Thrall’s Horde in every sense of the word (which is something NONE of the other leaders could boast).
On the other hand … concept only goes so far (its what the writers actually DO with him that will define him more, and he’s lacking pretty heavily so far). Its the same thing with Blightcaller … on a structural level there are few characters that actually represent the Forsaken better than him (and there are few who represent Forsaken Free Will better than Voss); but functionally … neither of them are really in a position to represent the Forsaken atm. The irony that Nate is a WAY more representative of what the Forsaken ARE than Sylvie … but its his relationship with her that prevents him from actually BEING that does not elude me.
When DON’T you post about that?
Thrall wanted the Horde to go to Northrend, but if Lother’mar had actually been able to talk to him and not be blackmailed by Sylvanas, he might actually have been able to convince him not to seen his people. Thrall maybe many thing, but at the very least he was always reasonable. Speaking of which:
“Well, I, at least, have not! My vengeance will not be denied, and you will give what I demand of you: the sin’dorei rangers and magi, as well as the Blood Knights.”
Clearly the person demanding stuff from Lorther’mar is Sylvanas more than Thrall.
Sylvanas did nothing wrong with strong arming Lor into going to Northrend. The rest of the Horde would have to compensate for them not pulling their weight, her taking her troops out of Ghostlands to send them to Northrend would have been an appropriate trade off. This really gets overblown just so people can whine about how much of a big meanie Sylv is.
If anything this just shows how different the Alliance and Horde are, the gnomes refused to tell anyone their problems back in Warcraft 3 precisely because they knew the rest of their allies would try to help them at the expense of trying to help Lordearon at the time.
Back on topic, Sylvanas still proves she didnt care one bit about the elves and that ultimately anything she gives to someone has a price, sometimes a very dire price. A lesson anyone following her should know by now.
Boy, do the Night Elves sure have news for them on how well asking for help would have gone…
Or he might not have. This is a meaningless hypothetical. Thrall was the one ordering them. It was on his command. And Sylvanas was not blackmailing him. She reminded him what was agreed upon when joining the Horde.
The Alliance sent heroes, the best they could at the time. Considering if the Alliance lost the battle for either Zandalar or Arathi the Horde would invade Stormwind next, you know the place where all the night elven refugees are living? Lastly, the invasion of Ashenvale was ill advised at best considering Anduin had they waited until after the Zandalar raid the Alliance would be “winning on all front” anyway.
Not often enough 
Horde booo! Horde booo!
No I kid.
And as their warchief, who they had entered an agreement with, they were obliged as members of the Horde to obey.
“The Horde prepares for war. And the sin’dorei, Lor’themar, constitute a portion of the Horde.”
Just sounded like a fair reminder, you don’t get all the benefits of the Horde without giving back. Much like the Alliance demanded the assistance of the High Elves in some of the prior wars.
I feel like that’s been the problem for years though, we haven’t had a single relatively well-written Horde character since, ironically, around the time of Cataclysm when Green Jesus was a huge joke amongst the Horde community. We had characters like prop up like Zaela, Nazgrim, Mulgore Baine, Vol’jin, Stonetalon Garrosh, and heck, even Sylvanas was a bit more well-rounded at that time and being an “interesting” character while also being a plausible leader.
In Warcrimes, we got just the slightest glimpse of what Baine could be if written even remotely well. A gentle giant who can literally snap Sylvanas in two like a twig if he so desired, the golden standard on what Tauren should be. A relatively passive race who can become a force to be reckoned with if provoked. Like real life bulls, even.
Instead we’re constantly stuck with a passive-aggressive coward, who is given every possible opportunity to bare his teeth and brandish his horns, and never does so. I like Christie Golden and I like most of her books, but the way she treats characters Baine and Anduin as pure, do-nothing-wrong, good bois’ comes at the expense of not only their present and future characterization but also the way that most players of their respective factions perceive them.
Nathanos is similar in that sense, he’s constantly given opportunity after opportunity to show that he’s more than a mere extension of Sylvanas, yet constantly reasserts himself as the self-insert of Steve Danuser kissing up to his waifu. Giving people the sense that he’s incapable of growing as an individual character.
Seriously, looking at the Horde roster is just really is GREAT concept … poor execution. Over, and over, and over again. Saurfang’s current story arc, all of his actions, I understand conceptually (and its not bad) … but the execution of that story has been utter trash (and so help me god if he dies at the end of this, making the messaging of his really expensive cinematics contradictory).
Baine is a FANTASTIC character in concept … but his execution is garbage. Nate is a FANTASTIC Forsaken Leader in concept, but again his execution is piss. Vol’jin, Voss, Rexxar, Thrall, etc … so many good concepts (so many good character foundations on paper) … all squandered because Blizz just does not seem to know how to use them properly.
Siding against Sylvanas? Sure.
Siding against his own people? Absolutely not.
If they hadn’t put that line in about him hoping his people would join him (implying he would fight his people to remove Sylvanas if he had to) it’d be fine, but now it’s a giant red warning sign.
And considering Blizzard went out of their way to have a Sunreaver side with Sylvanas because of Jaina’s involvement I’m absolutely ready for Lor’themar to be shown cutting down Blood Elves “for the greater good”.
They put that line in (along with the line stating she has the support of the people) likely to reinforce the fact that she is the Laughing Shepherd from Ogmot’s journal (leading her blind sheep off a cliff). I’ve been wondering how Blizz intends to gimmick their way into placing MORE of the blame of this expansion onto Sylvie’s shoulders; likely by making the Horde a victim of her too.
Sylvie will cease to be a part of the Horde by the end of this expansion; and it will likely be on her own volition (she’s gonna bail). The only question is WHAT we will get from such an event; I will wait to see. Maybe she’ll betray Nate in such an extreme way that he might grab onto the only life-line left to potentially salvage his character? I’ll hold onto that naive hope for now.
I hate the “Nathanos self-insert” myth so much.
Nathanos has been around since Vanilla, and when you play classic in a few weeks you will discover that he was exactly the same long before Steve Danuser was part of the writing team.
He also is architecturally a FANTASTIC rep (and potential leader) for the Forsaken, if only he could step out of Sylvie’s shadow. He actually WAS a champion of Lordaeron in life; He actually WAS betrayed by the Alliance; He Actually does seem at least somewhat invested in their future as a people (with his training of Human/Forsaken Dark Rangers). That sassy, rage-filled, yet slightly apathetic temperament is also an amazing representation of the Forsaken racial personality.
Honestly … I STILL am holding out hope that the misconception he seems to be making about Sylvie’s plans (in that he genuinely seems to believe that her vision for her future is at least inclusive of him and the Forsaken) bites him in the butt; and she betrays him (and so he turns on her for the sake of them). It would bring the end of her Warbringers to fruition (in which its Sylvie, standing alone; with not even Nathanos by her side anymore) … and make all those creepy tweets from Danuser little more than a deliberate red-herring to mask Nate’s eventual turn.
You hate it because it’s true, and because it’s true, it taints this Undead/Blood elf-dominated “Horde” you love so much.
I don’t recall him being Sylvanas’ love interest since vanilla.