Quoting Lor’themar, we need to rescue Baine because he represents “all that is best about the Horde.”
In what way? Baine has been sympathetic to the Alliance to the extent of repeatedly aiding them at the Horde’s expense. He is also constantly in need of rescuing. He is literally introduced, back in WC3, as a “damsel in distress.” He counsels surrender. He is clearly more sympathetic to the Alliance than the Horde. And he just seems pathetic and weak. The moment he bowed to Garrosh instead of fighting him right then, as Garrosh expected, defined Baine.
I get that Blizzard wants to use Sylvanas to represent all that is worst about the Horde. But why are they trying to force Baine, of all characters, down our throats as the alternative?
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Who would you rather represent the best (lol) in the horde?
Sylvanas?
Nathanos?
Saurfang? He left the Horde last I checked.
Volji- oh right he is dead.
Thrall? Oh he ran away and didn’t even want to deal with the Horde anymore.
Lorthemar? The guy only cares about his own people.
Gallywix? Do I even need to elaborate why he would be a terrible choice?
Rexxar? The guy is less suited for leading coalition of nations than the meat vendor.
Or do you have some random Horde character only people on the story forums has heard about?
Baine is all you got. Be glad. He is the sole reason we are handwaving away all of the Horde’s evil deeds the writers wrote for them to do this expansion.
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I hated him in WC3 as a whiny loser, WOW didn’t change my feelings at all. He whines about honor while doing nothing. That’s pretty much his whole character.
Cairne was all that was best about the Horde. Baine is trash.
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I’d still choose Saurfang, Lor’themar, or any dozen of minor NPCs as representing the “best of the Horde” over someone whose borderline treason stretches back years.
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Saurfang has been involved in multiple mass slaughters. Including War of Thornes. He is not the unblemished first snow of christmas you pretend that he is.
As for Lorthemar. What has he done specifically that shows he represents honor and integrity that all Horde characters seem to lack?
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At the very least he understands it’s moronic and dangerous to start another faction war (that didn’t have to happen) while the planet is in the brink of death.
At least ge and Lor’themar understand that this war is needless and neither would have brought their kin from the broken isles into the horde had they known they would have to fight again.
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Didn’t Lor’themar parley with the enemy in the middle of a war to discuss betraying the Horde, or at the very least joining the Alliance.
Its no wonder that he thinks Baine is doing a bang up job, he also had intentions to betray the Horde.
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Ahahahahahaha!! Seriously? Find a single instance where I pretended Saurfang is anything. Please Het, you’re reaching hard here.
Not blown up or burned down a city. Not allied himself with an enemy. Not cry and whine. Not fled during a time of war. I could go on, but you’ll try and turn this into some complaint about Teldrassil in the next five or six replies.
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Alright so how does he represent the best of the Horde when he has so much innocent blood on his hand? He literally led the way for this war.
When Sylvanas suggested the war he should have been the first to say no. No more war. No more senseless killing.
Lets try… diplomacy for a change.
You have shown very little in regards to the premise of the OP. What has he done that displays the best in the Horde.
All you have is “Well he isn’t a mass murderer that complains all the time!”
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Let’s get the token Het-isms out of the way first.
I agreed with the OP. Pretty sure that’s showing plenty of regard for it.
This line makes no sense at all. I’m not defending Baine as the “best of the Horde”, you were. So now on to the meaty bits.
Because unlike Baine, he’s a man of action. The Horde isn’t a passive force. It goes, it does, it acts. The Horde doesn’t sit by the wayside.
While Baine will sit around and say “this is wrong”, Saurfang goes and gets Thrall, convinces him to come back and help change things.
While Baine was complaining about how this war is bad, Saurfang surrendered to Anduin to take the punishment for hisown crimes, and hopefully die in honorable combat. Both accept they’re complicit in evil acts, but Baine talks, while Saurfang acts.
And their levels of acceptence of their own culpability is completely different. Saurfang acknowledges his failings; Baine just says “it’s all Sylvannas’s fault, she sucks”.
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I do not understand why you have to make this personal. I never tried to besmirch you as an individual like you are doing to me.
Lets keep this respectful.
Baines actions out do Saurfang’s.
He was the one Horde character to actually right a wrong by saving Derek and still standing up for his own actions when Sylvanas called out Zelling as the sole person responsible.
Also the premise of the OP is that Baine does not represent the best of the Horde but rather another character.
And so far you have shown very little as to why Baine falls short of either Lorthemar or Saurfang.
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Well because they have to give the new Warchief some kind of qualification. And apparently they’ve settled on “he’s a good lad.”
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I can buy Baine as representing a certain set of positive values, but it seems obscenely out of character for this evaluation to come out of Lor’Themar’s mouth. Why does he suddenly care about Baine? What connection do the two have?
They’re trying so hard to build this coalition against Sylvanas but they can’t think of any other way to do it than by leaning on the idea that big strong honorable warriors are THE ONLY TRUE HORDE. Pathetic.
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I’m not besmirching you. I’m noting that certain traits are present in most of your argument and getting my responses to those out of the way first. This isn’t an insult; it’s acknowledgement.
He stood up to Sylvannas when he was already caught out. Not exactly a heroic moment. Bringing a potential weapon against Jaina to Jaina isn’t what I’d call a heroic action either; it only works if Derek hadn’t been turned already. A more heroic action would have been to have stepped in before Sylvannas actually raised Derek. Instead, he waits until it’s safest to intervene, sneaks around to bring Derek off, then shows some courage when he realizes Sylvannas knows what happened.
I’ve agreed with the OP’s reasoning against Baine. That’s my list. I don’t feel it needs to be retyped in every response.
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Flimsy reasoning that you are unable to justify under minimal scrutiny.
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I already justified it. You couldn’t respond. You instead attempt to pretend no reasoning was given.
This is what I mean by a Het-ism.
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Does he want the Horde to surrender or just to cease aggression? Genuinely asking. From what I’ve seen of Baine, he’s not onboard the war train but before Derek Proudmoore wasn’t against it enough to try hitting the breaks either.
As far as being pathetic and weak, I suppose that description could be applied to him. By traditional Horde standards that’s probably true. But he seems to put his responsibility before himself - until Derek came along! - so while he didn’t want to go along with Sylvanas, her threats against the Tauren were enough to make him complicit. His obligation to his people has gone as far as Baine seeking Alliance aid to retake (and now defend) Thunder Bluff when the Horde was unable to provide it.
This all depends on what someone believes the Horde’s virtues are and wether Baine has them (in sufficient quantity).
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I disagree that you were able to justify it.
He still stood up nonetheless. Or would you have rathered that he left with the Alliance like Saurfang did?
He saved a guy that was being tortured back to his family and warned them what sylvanas was trying to do.
I don’t see how you can see this as anything less than a positive unless you are an ardent Sylvanas fanboy.
Just like a more heroic action would have been Saurfang not attacking the Alliance again or at the very least order his troops to not follow Sylvanas’ orders as he was still the general of the army.
I guess both Baine and Saurfang let the evil happen and regret it after wards.
Kind of like Saurfang again who tried to take the easy way out via suicide and surrender. At least Baine was able to right the wrong while acting within the Horde meanwhile Saurfang completely abandons them in order to find Thrall who wasn’t really interested in the first place.
I do not see how you could possibly fail to see the parrallels here.
Lol ok?
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How many threads like this we gonna be making bro while self-righteously accusing dissenting opinions as “trolls” and “spam”, just curious
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He allowed Derek to be raised from the dead, let Sylvannas torture/possibly brainwash him in Dazar’alor, and only bothered to rescue him later when he was being shipped over to Kul’Tiras. He stood by and allowed all of this and only intervened when it was possibly too late.
I don’t know how you can see this as a positive unless you’re secretly a Sylvannas fanboy and wanted her to come as close as possible to success.
[quote=“Hetaera-sargeras, post:18, topic:215289”]
He still stood up nonetheless. Or would you have rathered that he left with the Alliance like Saurfang did?[/quote]
Yes, I would have preferred it if Baine said “enough, I’m out” after watching his own trooped get turned into zombies, the burning of Teldrassil, etc. Him hanging around shows he wasn’t quite ready to walk away from Sylvannas until more atrocities had happened.
Yes, exactly that. Only one of them surrendered to face his consequences and the other stuck around until he was arrested. One shows he’s tired of slaughter, the other shows he’s okay with slaughter, but draws the line with a single zombie.
He literally stood by and said “this is wrong”. His only act was to wait until nobody was looking and steal zombie Derek. We have different ideas on heroism if you think it’s more heroic to steal zombies than to surrender to an enemy and face judgment for your crimes.
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