I’m honestly going to wait to pass judgement on Saurfang until I see exactly what he is doing. As far as I’m aware so far, Anduin merely told him the equivelant of “I can’t do this crap, go clean up your own mess, I’ll support YOUR play”. If something pops up to refute that idea, then I’ll turn on Saurfang; and I’m not opposed to the idea that a character gets lost once in a while (especially after the War he helped start resulted in an atrocity that he didn’t intend).
As for Baine … screw it. I’m just glad he actually grew a spine and he backed up his whining. Plus, he actions are framed towards more “I detest your blatant abandonment of even your OWN people’s values”, than wanting to help the Alliance outright (and the guy was looking for potential olive-branches to keep the option of diplomacy with the Alliance, should the War go south. Derek would apply). Only fools take diplomacy off the table entirely, even in war.
Also, I agree with the Vol’jin, Gazlowe (future Trade Prince please Blizz), and Thrall things. Vol’jin and Gazlowe were more my speed in regards to how they excersize that balance between morality and pragmatism. And … Thrall’s ideals and vision weren’t the problem, it was his lack of will and drive to be a Nation Builder and follow through to the end. Saurfang and Baine, in their own debatable ways, at the very least have not yet abandoned the Horde … Thrall most certainly has.
I think he had the drive to build a nation, but lacked the skills. He based the hordes government on the Old Horde, failing to realize that the old horde was a military organization, and most of the orcs that made up the new horde were nomadic, and not used to agriculture. Thrall set the pieces that would lead the horde to fail to hold his ideals. For one he wanted a city like the old orcish holds, ignoring the fact the lack of forest would mean he’d need to import wood from the night elves, when he should have built into the canyons walls. The orcs also only raised livestock and didn’t have proper crop baring farms, which means his people starve in the desert because he didn’t relise that a non-nomadic nation can’t get by via hunting and gathering.
Thrall was a charismatic leader and wanted only the best for the orcs, but failed to properly understand the consequences of his actions (He felt the orcs needed to commit a penance, but never planned for what would get them through said penance)
Amazingly well put, I guess I agree. I also want Thrall back, not as a neutral character, but truly a strong representative of the Horde. I wouldn’t even him mind taking up the mantel of Warchief again, under the right conditions. This same frame of thought extends to wanting Rexxar to finally commit to the faction (no more wishy-washy nomad crap); Rokhan actually using the notoriety he has to officially become the leader of the Darkspear (he’s capable of it); and for Gazlowe to take Gallywix’s place as Trade Prince of the Horde Goblin’s (with the Steamwheedle siding more and more with the Horde according to the War Table missions).
As for the Forsaken … I think you have more insight into which way they might go if Sylvanas ceases to be their leader. I would like Voss to take more responsibility over her people (and become a true Forsaken), but beyond that … I have no idea? A little part of me would love the opportunity to see “WHO” Nathanos is when he’s not just a mindless dog to Sylvie … but I feel like that’s a vain hope.
We want Baine to grow a spine in the manner similar to his short story “As our Fathers Before Us” where he finds solutions to Horde problems that are both from a peaceful nature and still benefit the Horde.
Lets look at the current mess he’s getting himself in.
How about instead of jumping to treason he instead gave Slyvanas an alternative solution to punish Kul’tiras for their raid and cripple the Kul’tiran fleet, such as gathering a group of Horde shamans and then using some of the Azerite we’ve stolen from Kul’tiras to raise a series of barrier reefs/undersea mountains around the choke points to lock the heavy Kul’tiran warships into their bay. With an efficient alternative in place he would then have a good argument to release Derek into Voss’ custody so she can teach him to be a good Forsaken.
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think Nathanos does what he does for Sylvanas, that was the entire point of his conversation with Garona Halforcan.
He cares for, loves even, Sylvanas but that’s not what drives him. Garona states this flat out, that he kills the Alliance with a degree of zeal and hatred that goes beyond simple loyalty to the Banshee Queen. He does these things because the Alliance turned it’s back on Lordaeron and hunted the Forsaken, he does these things because at one point he was a champion of the Alliance and yet they turned their back on him, he does these things because since he’s been gone the Alliance became ten times as arrogant and deserves to have someone knock them down a peg.
People who think that Nathanos does this just because of Sylvanas and not because of his love for Lordaeron have failed to grasp the core of his character. His romance to Windrunner is an element of his character, it is not what defines him as a person.
I think this can be seen very clearly in Before the Storm where he’s repulsed by what she’s done to the Council, and then at Lordaeron where he seems genuinely distraught over the destruction of the capital city.
That’s why I feel that his current level of exposure is partly to keep the other leaders hands clean and partly to make him relevant enough to replace Sylvanas as Forsaken leader. Not out of some Gary Stu fantasy of the writer as people love to suggest.
He genuinely cares about the Forsaken and the Horde and I suspect by the end of the expansion he’s going to have to choose between them and Sylvanas.
That was a crackpot theory I put together when Before the Storm came out and we got more indepth with his character, he’s not intervened but she seems to increasingly be rubbing his personal code of conduct the wrong way. Since then that feeling has only been reinforced, you could even say his core conflict will be between…loyalty and honor.
If this is the case (and I’m not arguing that its not), then how must this champion of Lordaeron feel being the one to fire the arrow that Blighted it? How must he feel watching his Queen (who herself is NOT a citizen of Lordaeron) killing citizens of Lordaeron, with her Dark Rangers (also NOT citizens of Lordaeron) just for wanting to reconnect with their families? How must he feel to know, that as far I can tell, he’s the ONLY Citizen of Lordaeron included amongst her inner circle (which seems to include only her most elite Dark Rangers … elves)?
Nathanos needs to get over himself if he ever hopes to be the leader that his people (those citizens of Lordaeron that were betrayed by the Alliance, NOT a High Elven General who no longer was a part of the Alliance upon her death) need him to be. The only time I’ve ever seen him ever truly get upset with her (not hesitate, actually upset) is at Arathi. If that’s what it takes for him to even speak against her, what will it take for him to move against her? Perhaps … “a Shepard, cloaked in the shadows of her past, beloved by a flock of blind sheep…”?
I mean, if you have not noticed the little signs of dissent all along the way then I don’t know what to tell you. We already know he feels horrible about Lordaeron, there’s no point in fixating on Sylvanas charming him into doing her dirty work there otherwise, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he was sat next to Zul on our way to Zandalar where the prophet promptly asks him about how he feels serving Sylvlanas.
And yeah, the speech with Garona which literally opens with ‘Something more then loyalty to the Banshee Queen drives you.’ But his slow distancing from Sylvanas doesn’t mean he has to be a nice person, heck i’d prefer if he maintained the same gruff attitude he’s pretty much always had.
As for being the only human among elves well…Dark Mirror already spelled out how he feels about non-Sylvanas Elves.
Look, I’ll be one of those that genuinely believes that Nathanos is being built up for not only a moment to turn on Sylvanas (Garona says as much, he’s got his own personal motives for what he does beyond his Queen), but also likely be her replacement should she no longer be the leader.
Personally, the things I dislike the most about Nathanos are those traits of his relating to Sylvie. On the other hand, I like his gruff exterior; his anger; his sass; his shrewd mind; and from what I can tell … a genuine care for the Forsaken people (even if he’s a dick). I also like that (even within BfA alone), his communication and interactions with the other races of the Horde (while harsh) are far more productive and mutual than Sylvanas’ ever where.
I have no place to say this (as I don’t play Forsaken), but a Nathanos Blightcaller (developed and independent of Sylvanas Windrunner, even if he still harbors complex feelings for her), supported by a Lillian Voss (who is finally willing to fully commit to her people), is my ideal leadership outcome for the Forsaken by the end of BfA. For what its worth…
It’s pretty much my ideal outcome as well. Between you and me? I don’t like Elves that much, in any setting, and i’v been hoping for a change in leadership for awhile. That’s not to say I don’t like Sylvanas, how she fights and what she fights for, but she is ultimately not representative of the Forsaken as a people. Lilan Voss is closer but Lilan was never enough of a patriot to reflect where the Forsaken come from in my mind.
Nathanos does, he absolutely reflects what a Forsaken should be and the only thing that holds his character back is his ties to Sylvanas, something that almost feels metaphorical. Cut that tie and he would fill that spot as well, if not better, then Sylvanas did.
The Forsaken and Blood Elves have been core parts of the Horde for longer than when the WC3 trio of just Trolls Tauren and Orcs were all that made it up. I’m very sorry that you seem unable to get over this, maybe some professional help would be useful for you to finally move past this non issue that has been resolved for over a decade.
You’re right. It was totally the Forsaken and Blood Elves who told the writers of Blizzard to do all this to the Horde. Because they definitely have the agency and will to do so and are definitely not just pixels on a screen that you have a worrying inability to get over seeing among the faction they have been a part of for over a decade.
Entities in the story often help build upon a story. If Smurfs were a horde race the story would be shaped accordingly. On the same token if forsaken were there own faction, it would be fair to say that the story would be influenced likewise. From the thematic to other parts of the lore, including art, certain lore decisions serve to shape the future of a story.
And it just so happens that the inclusion of Blood elves and Forsaken have helped shape the horde’s story down the toilet.
There is nothing binding the writers to write the Horde this way other than their own desire to give the Alliance villains to defeat and poor little orcs and tauren to save from themselves so that Anduin can teach them how to be honorable.
There is no law of nature stating that the existence of Forsaken or Blood Elves mandates the Horde to be written this way. It is purely the whim of writers.
I hope one day you get past your delusions and are able to one day live in reality with the rest of us.