Baine cutscene (spoilers)

[Cryptkeeps-thrall (Cryptkeeps)]

Sure, he could’ve been useful asset but he wasn’t the goal of our War Campaign at all. He was raised so we could get the Tidesage artifact using his knowledge around Stormsong Monastery (You know how it turned out) and he did his job. I fail to understand how killing him after him supporting the Alliance is undoing our War Campaign? Or you seriously believe having a dude who can increase movespeed of Boat was our War Campaign goal?

I’m not saying he’s the primary goal, I’m saying he was part of multiple other elements in the Horde war campaign that are starting to erode and become undone by what’s going on in the current patch. It just feels a little bit more like the Horde’s actions in the quest-line devoted to him amounted to nothing in the end and now Sylvanas is picking up a new plan B entirely.

[Withpuppys-nazgrel (Withpuppys)]

I also learned Alliance is really hard faction to main

know my pain dawny

[Dawnsong-tichondrius (Dawnsong)]

It just feels a little bit more like the Horde’s actions in the quest-line devoted to him amounted to nothing in the end and now Sylvanas is picking up a new plan B entirely.

I agree, I still can’t understand why Blizz made Zelling in the first place and develop him if he was just going to die without any purpose. But what I got from Baine cutscene was how Baine undoing our War Campaign and Sylvanas going more evil.

know my pain dawny

[Cryptkeeps-thrall (Cryptkeeps)]

Yes, just like I said before.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/058/866/afa.jpg

Alliance end game needs mad help.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Sure, he could’ve been useful asset but he wasn’t the goal of our War Campaign at all. He was raised so we could get the Tidesage artifact using his knowledge around Stormsong Monastery (You know how it turned out) and he did his job.

I’m not saying he’s the primary goal, I’m saying he was part of multiple other elements in the Horde war campaign that are starting to erode and become undone by what’s going on in the current patch. It just feels a little bit more like the Horde’s actions in the quest-line devoted to him amounted to nothing in the end and now Sylvanas is picking up a new plan B entirely.

I made a list of this earlier in this very thread, amusingly enough:

So what did the Horde get out of its player’s War Campaign?

Marshal M. Valentine? Sacrificed by Nathanos.
Thomas Zelling? Executed in front of all of the Horde’s leaders.
Darkshore? Ran off.
Abyssal Scepter? Stolen back by the Alliance, used against the Horde, then destroyed by Talanji.
The Zandalari fleet? Blown up by the Alliance.
Derek Proudmoore? Saved by Baine.

So… what’s left? The inevitable betrayal from Priscilla Ashvane?

And Amalia Stone.

… With her Scourge tabard.

[Desanvos-dalaran (Desanvos)]

For those of us keeping score the Horde sort of has a depleted roster problem of NPCs, what with Blizzard cycling our characters walking into the villain bat and dying, so making up a new character to sacrifice instead of an existing one makes sense.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

Well about the only things that Arthas has done that Sylvanas hasn’t is 1) Kill a Menethil and 21) Corrupt the Sunwell.

Fixed that for you!

Genn is a good grumpy puppy.

And Anduin has lost like three daddies already.

[Cryptkeeps-thrall (Cryptkeeps)]

Genn is a good grumpy puppy.

But apparently is seen as a scary werewolf boogeyman by the Horde given what they think of Genn vs. Rastakhan.

Honestly though, I wish that perception was just a little bit more… justified. I’m not saying to make Genn an out-and-out villain since he kinda works as an anti-Sylvanas sort of character, but no sleep is lost in letting him get more in tune with his monster when fighting against a faction of monsters.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

I’m a bit torn.

I like that Genn’s developed as a character and moved past some of his issues. I think his relationship with Anduin is very good for him. Proves you can teach an old dog new tricks. And he makes a good mentor and occasional foil for Anduin. Helps him make some of the tougher calls that are contrary to his character.

So…

Character development is good.

Dealing with your issues and becoming a better person is good.

But the story needs characters that provide conflict and that the opposing faction can legitimately hate. The Alliance is very short on such characters and the ones that could be used, like Rogers or even Enaara are absent or stuck below deck.

Genn could still be that sort of character, the trick would be balancing the big bad wolf with his newer cuddlier side.

[Cryptkeeps-thrall (Cryptkeeps)]

Personally I liked Genn’s dynamic in Legion a lot. He was nicely antagonistic and seen as a real monster from the Horde player perspective, but then you also had that cinematic where he helps Anduin mourn for Varian and shows that different side to him.

I think the best part is Alliance players get to engage and play alongside him when he’s being the the enemy of the Horde, and having something like that in a bigger setup than a sidestory in a heavily Vrykul-themed zone would be great.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

Sheep mentality truly is a curse for this game (cause let’s be honest Horde racials are an “advantage” only for the extremely skilled players… The rest of the scrubs will continue being scrubs no matter the color of their background). Players created this problem, so maybe it’s time Blizz takes away the ridiculous toys and creates a truly fair environment for competitive game (A. K. A. no working racials whatsoever for anything but LFR / LFD / random BG), add to this a couple of weeks with promotional or even free faction transfers and then we will see if things balance each other.

[Julia-icecrown (Julia)]

Well about the only things that Arthas has done that Sylvanas hasn’t is 1) Kill a Menethil and 21) Corrupt the Sunwell.

Fixed that for you!

Genn is a good grumpy puppy.

And Anduin has lost like three daddies already.

I stand corrected.

Only the date between Xal’atath and the Sunwell remains.

[Elenstelle-moon-guard (Elenstelle)]

The irony being the Horde up to Sylvanas has always been Chaotic Neutral/Good vs the Alliance’s Lawful Neutral/Good.

The modern Horde is now the polar opposite alignment and is solidly Lawful Evil.

Lawful Evil/Neutral VS Lawful Neutral/Good is frankly just a boring conflict.

[Tewdee-magtheridon (Tewdee)]

My issue with this cutscene is the pointless execution of Zelling.

When everyone interpreted the dialogue as Zelling revealing himself and Baine gets arrested defending him, that made sense.

In this one, Baine takes all the blame and then Zelling is killed for no reason other than to make Sylvanas look evil.

Yes, he’s culpable but that is never addressed in the cutscene. Zelling is accused, given no means to protest and is executed shortly after in the matter of seconds.

All this does is make me angrier at Blizzard than anything else because Zelling was one of the few good things we got out of this trash expansion.

[Rikiya-velen]

All this does is make me angrier at Blizzard than anything else because Zelling was one of the few good things we got out of this trash expansion.

I totally agree, but I can see why Sylvanas reacted the way she did.

Baine is a well-liked Race Leader and founding member of the Horde. She cant just unceremoniously off him in front of everyone without risking rebellion from at least the Tauren and severely damaging her relations with others.

Zelling, on the other hand, was new enough that not everyone even knew him yet and he has far less influence than Baine. She can kill him on the spot as a warning shot to everyone there witnessing it. Plus, he’s an Undead serving right under her nose who isnt 100% “For the Dark Lady” devoted to her. BtS made it pretty apparent that though there are in-game examples of Forsaken serving with the Argents and other far away organizations, she is not comfortable with the idea those directly under her not being totally devoted to her. To her, Zelling is an arrow in her quiver that wasnt working properly, so she removed it.

[Laeth-hakkar]

Baine is a well-liked Race Leader and founding member of the Horde.

You’re thinking of his father, Cairne.

[Rikiya-velen]

Baine was in the WCIII and was presumably there when Cairne decided the Tauren should join. I’d say that makes him one of the those involved in the Founding.

[Laeth-hakkar]

Ah, gotcha, read founding member to be the big ones, not everyone.

[Withpuppys-nazgrel (Withpuppys)]

i remember having to rescue him as rexxar because cairne was depressed

[Niingdorei-bleeding-hollow (Niingdorei)]

What I’m curious about is does Sylvanas know Lilian is diamaterically opposed to her goals? Lilian is an idealist in regards to how she views the Forsaken. Sylvanas wants to get rid of free will.